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View Poll Results: Washington DC: Southern, Northern, or No Man's Land?
Northern City with Southern Overtones 13 33.33%
Southern city with Northern Overtones 4 10.26%
A hybrid of both 13 33.33%
No Man's Land- its neither duck nor pond. 9 23.08%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-09-2007, 06:27 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I strongly disagree. I've seen plenty of Blacks in, say, the Philly area, New York, and Boston with the same kind of look as Blacks in the DC area. I think you have it backwards, because although the Northeast was considered a "haven" for Blacks during and after the Era of Slavery, MANY Northerners were disdainful of the Black/African culture. This has been manifested into racial tension that exists to this day, and the relatively few Blacks that made into the upper-echelons of society often did so by divorcing themselves from Black culture. Certainly strong pockets of Black culture exist in the Northeast today, but they are overwhelmingly found in very segregated, impoverished areas.


You seem to think that minorities have always received equal treatment in the North, which is hardly true. Of course, the North was never involved in slavery, but to think that Blacks were accepted with open arms is an extremely innaccurate image. There, too, is a strong history of racism in the North that exists on a much more subtle, "behind closed doors" level. Your view that only Southern Blacks would want to make themselves appear more White falls under the logic to which many people of this country ignorantly subscribe -- that racism is exclusively fault of the South, when that couldn't be any further from the truth. Look into the history of Race Riots, for example, and you'll find the extent to which racism permeates regional stereotypes.

Yes, this is the common wisdom, but I don't agree with it. No race of people who were persecuted and subjugated for generations by the vile, masochistic southern rebel is going to emerge with much education and refinement. To survive a life under the control of southern men and women whose warped mindset was that slavery was right, required that blacks expend an enormous amount of energy crafting ways to simply survive, not devote to self-development. So ignorance prevailed. For the white southerner, the ignorance was innate. For the black southerner, it was forced ignorance.

In 1823, 60 years or a generation before the end of slavery, the U.S. Supreme Court handed down a decision granting land to a man who had gotten his title from the US over a man who had gotten his at an earlier time from the Indians. This was in Illinios. It was felt at the time that although the Indians possessed the land, it was felt that the US (as the successors to the European discoverers of the land) held superior right to the land even though the Indians had control over it. The overall mindset at that time was severely unsophisticated, yet it was the north who felt that slavery was wrong. Hundreds of thousands of white men in the north died to end slavery, so one cannot infer from this that northerners were inherently racist towards blacks and african culture. The most that you can say is that because they fought so hard, watched many of their loved ones die to free the slaves, that they expected blacks to show them why that enormous, magnificent effort was not in vain. Would you say that the hip-hop culture as it is perpetuated today, is the modern evolution of the proper response?

The view of the northerner as bring racist (to nearly the same extent as the southern racist) is ludicrous. About the worst that you can say about the white northerner faced with the sudden northern migration of southern whites and blacks, is that they were impatient in dealing with southern blacks who were undeveloped. Complicating the reaction among those in the north to blacks was the infiltration of southern whites into the north. These rejects were "stealth racists." Assimilating and blending in with the yankees, suppressing not only their utter disdain for black people and the yankees, but their complete devotion to rebel causes. These stealth racists were not likely to have any resepct for a land that favored the end of slavery, and their behavior was certainly not geared towards promoting racial harmony. If anything, they didn't want it to appear that the northerners were any better than they were( desperately trying to regain a sense of self-worth after losing the war), therefore promoting racial conflict, discrimination, and unfairness. You want to talk about racism in the north during the time after slavery and the northern migration, prove to me that these stealth racists didn't exist in the north in great numbers and that they had absolutely no effect on the discrimination as practiced in the north. My grandmother who was born in 1898 in Georgia, whose family left when she was a teenager painted an entirely different view of the north than you say, one that overwhelmingly speaks of favorable responses to blacks in Illinois where she resided until she died in 1997. My grandfather was born in 1900 in Georgia and moved to Illinois as a teenager. His experiences were similar. Many in the north were themselves immigrants during that time, trying to make it in this country. My grandparents told me that they did not experience racism. My father was born in 1926 and he too felt the same way. My mother in 1931, experienced same. I experienced same. Ignorance is the problem, not race.

I think it is fair that white northerners expected more from blacks after dying to free them from slavery. They expected them to overwhelmingly embrace education, to strive for a higher sense of moral existence, to work like hell to be decent, hard-working, contributing members of the society. Blacks are a talented people, possessing great survival instincts and capabilities, enormous talent in every area they focus on, great intelligence, a great capacity for understanding human suffering, and potential for great compassion. Blacks are versatile, dynamic, talented, adaptable people. So what the hell happened? Why is incarceration a badge of honor in some circles? Why the self-hatred, the elevation of black-on-black crime? Why show disrespect for your own neighborhood by destroying it through drugs, gang activity, malaise, and enormous underachievement? Why do kids ridicule those who are trying to be good students? Why isn't high educational acheivement paramount? MLK wanted the country to view people by the "content of their character", well why aren't black people focusing strictly on developing the highest of character? This society places great importance on education, especially in the fields of science, math, law, engineering, medicine, computers. Why aren't these fields embraced in record numbers by black people? Why aren't the college admission offices turning down blacks because too many are overqualified? People in this country are sick of ignorant black people and I suspect that northern whites were surprised at the level of ignorance during the northern migration and the unwillingness of blacks to remedy the problem after such a great sacrifice was made to provide a better opportunity to live as human beings. Responding negatively to ignorance is different than responding negatively to someone strictly by race. In many cases, a way of dress, a way of speaking, and so forth precludes or identifies an ignorant behavior and mindset. You have to admit that the prevailing mode of dress today among this country's black youth does not indicate that education is paramount. I find that people in the north have higher expectations, even of themselves. Their reactions are more direct, their disapproval more readily apparent.

I don't think that racism is the "fault" of the south. We don't live in a homogenous society like Japan. There is going to be a certain amount of racism. My contention here is that the south's particular use and practice of race-based inequalities certainly didn't help, and in fact was and is a detriment to the development of the country as a progressive society. I would venture to say that black people have not helped as well. The thrust of the most ignorant of the race at the present time is too pervasive in this society, and the response is predictable, even among educated, more enlightened black people.

Finally, what the hell is "black culture" today? If black culture means that you as a black man must shave your head bald, wear a goatee, wear oversized clothes, dress like a thug, embrace each other publically as brothas yet chase each other's women privately, find value in incarceration, be a member of gang, think you are justified in shooting homeboy because he wore red while walking on your street, embracing the ignorant hip-hop music as a useful form of musical expression, ridiculing those who are trying to gain high educational acheivement as being "sell-outs", hanging around only black people, supporting only black causes, making excuses for low educational efforts, poor work history, general underachievement and lack of focus, then I don't identify and I don't blame anyone for turning their backs on this segment of society. My hats off to the entire northeast region for sticking to their guns and rejecting this group. "Black culture" is a long way from meaning: primary focus on high educational achievement in law, engineering, medicine, science, computers, and mathematics; tendency towards overachievement rather than underachievement; few being incarcerated; promotion of respect for women, elders, your parents, your ancestors, and even white northerners who died to free your black ancestors; recognition that in this country not everybody turns their back on you because you are black; recognition that all races contain good, supportive people who expect you to simply be a person; the tendency to respect the family; the devotion to the upbringing of kids so they are not glorifying hip-hop, thug life and gangbanging but instead want to be doctors and lawyers. I believe this is what was expected of the black race and to the disappointment of many, it's not happening.

Good discussion. I don't mean to offend southerners. I know some very fine people from the south and I have relatives who live there today. My wrath is really geared towards ignorance as reflected in supporters of slavery and to ignorant blacks.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,489 posts, read 8,124,053 times
Reputation: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckfush View Post
Yes, this is the common wisdom, but I don't agree with it. No race of people who were persecuted and subjugated for generations by the vile, masochistic southern rebel is going to emerge with much education and refinement. To survive a life under the control of southern men and women whose warped mindset was that slavery was right, required that blacks expend an enormous amount of energy crafting ways to simply survive, not devote to self-development. So ignorance prevailed. For the white southerner, the ignorance was innate. For the black southerner, it was forced ignorance.

In 1823, 60 years or a generation before the end of slavery, the U.S. Supreme Court handed down a decision granting land to a man who had gotten his title from the US over a man who had gotten his at an earlier time from the Indians. This was in Illinios. It was felt at the time that although the Indians possessed the land, it was felt that the US (as the successors to the European discoverers of the land) held superior right to the land even though the Indians had control over it. The overall mindset at that time was severely unsophisticated, yet it was the north who felt that slavery was wrong. Hundreds of thousands of white men in the north died to end slavery, so one cannot infer from this that northerners were inherently racist towards blacks and african culture. The most that you can say is that because they fought so hard, watched many of their loved ones die to free the slaves, that they expected blacks to show them why that enormous, magnificent effort was not in vain. Would you say that the hip-hop culture as it is perpetuated today, is the modern evolution of the proper response?

The view of the northerner as bring racist (to nearly the same extent as the southern racist) is ludicrous. About the worst that you can say about the white northerner faced with the sudden northern migration of southern whites and blacks, is that they were impatient in dealing with southern blacks who were undeveloped. Complicating the reaction among those in the north to blacks was the infiltration of southern whites into the north. These rejects were "stealth racists." Assimilating and blending in with the yankees, suppressing not only their utter disdain for black people and the yankees, but their complete devotion to rebel causes. These stealth racists were not likely to have any resepct for a land that favored the end of slavery, and their behavior was certainly not geared towards promoting racial harmony. If anything, they didn't want it to appear that the northerners were any better than they were( desperately trying to regain a sense of self-worth after losing the war), therefore promoting racial conflict, discrimination, and unfairness. You want to talk about racism in the north during the time after slavery and the northern migration, prove to me that these stealth racists didn't exist in the north in great numbers and that they had absolutely no effect on the discrimination as practiced in the north. My grandmother who was born in 1898 in Georgia, whose family left when she was a teenager painted an entirely different view of the north than you say, one that overwhelmingly speaks of favorable responses to blacks in Illinois where she resided until she died in 1997. My grandfather was born in 1900 in Georgia and moved to Illinois as a teenager. His experiences were similar. Many in the north were themselves immigrants during that time, trying to make it in this country. My grandparents told me that they did not experience racism. My father was born in 1926 and he too felt the same way. My mother in 1931, experienced same. I experienced same. Ignorance is the problem, not race.

I think it is fair that white northerners expected more from blacks after dying to free them from slavery. They expected them to overwhelmingly embrace education, to strive for a higher sense of moral existence, to work like hell to be decent, hard-working, contributing members of the society. Blacks are a talented people, possessing great survival instincts and capabilities, enormous talent in every area they focus on, great intelligence, a great capacity for understanding human suffering, and potential for great compassion. Blacks are versatile, dynamic, talented, adaptable people. So what the hell happened? Why is incarceration a badge of honor in some circles? Why the self-hatred, the elevation of black-on-black crime? Why show disrespect for your own neighborhood by destroying it through drugs, gang activity, malaise, and enormous underachievement? Why do kids ridicule those who are trying to be good students? Why isn't high educational acheivement paramount? MLK wanted the country to view people by the "content of their character", well why aren't black people focusing strictly on developing the highest of character? This society places great importance on education, especially in the fields of science, math, law, engineering, medicine, computers. Why aren't these fields embraced in record numbers by black people? Why aren't the college admission offices turning down blacks because too many are overqualified? People in this country are sick of ignorant black people and I suspect that northern whites were surprised at the level of ignorance during the northern migration and the unwillingness of blacks to remedy the problem after such a great sacrifice was made to provide a better opportunity to live as human beings. Responding negatively to ignorance is different than responding negatively to someone strictly by race. In many cases, a way of dress, a way of speaking, and so forth precludes or identifies an ignorant behavior and mindset. You have to admit that the prevailing mode of dress today among this country's black youth does not indicate that education is paramount. I find that people in the north have higher expectations, even of themselves. Their reactions are more direct, their disapproval more readily apparent.

I don't think that racism is the "fault" of the south. We don't live in a homogenous society like Japan. There is going to be a certain amount of racism. My contention here is that the south's particular use and practice of race-based inequalities certainly didn't help, and in fact was and is a detriment to the development of the country as a progressive society. I would venture to say that black people have not helped as well. The thrust of the most ignorant of the race at the present time is too pervasive in this society, and the response is predictable, even among educated, more enlightened black people.

Finally, what the hell is "black culture" today? If black culture means that you as a black man must shave your head bald, wear a goatee, wear oversized clothes, dress like a thug, embrace each other publically as brothas yet chase each other's women privately, find value in incarceration, be a member of gang, think you are justified in shooting homeboy because he wore red while walking on your street, embracing the ignorant hip-hop music as a useful form of musical expression, ridiculing those who are trying to gain high educational acheivement as being "sell-outs", hanging around only black people, supporting only black causes, making excuses for low educational efforts, poor work history, general underachievement and lack of focus, then I don't identify and I don't blame anyone for turning their backs on this segment of society. My hats off to the entire northeast region for sticking to their guns and rejecting this group. "Black culture" is a long way from meaning: primary focus on high educational achievement in law, engineering, medicine, science, computers, and mathematics; tendency towards overachievement rather than underachievement; few being incarcerated; promotion of respect for women, elders, your parents, your ancestors, and even white northerners who died to free your black ancestors; recognition that in this country not everybody turns their back on you because you are black; recognition that all races contain good, supportive people who expect you to simply be a person; the tendency to respect the family; the devotion to the upbringing of kids so they are not glorifying hip-hop, thug life and gangbanging but instead want to be doctors and lawyers. I believe this is what was expected of the black race and to the disappointment of many, it's not happening.

Good discussion. I don't mean to offend southerners. I know some very fine people from the south and I have relatives who live there today. My wrath is really geared towards ignorance as reflected in supporters of slavery and to ignorant blacks.
I don't think you have the right to make sweeping generalizations about my people like that. My ancestors did own slaves, but they were very very kind to them and freed most of them before the War. Many Northerners did not care about freeing slaves. They wanted to keep the South in the Union. By the same token, most Southerners were not slave owners.

Also some black people in the South also owned slaves, and Africans did sell their own into slavery. I'm not making excuses, but it was a different Era and a different time. Don't lay the racism card at this Southerners door step.

When black people migrated north and midwest they were not greeted with open arms by the whites of those areas. Many were treated worse than they were in the South . They talk a lot about isolated incidents like the Emmet Till case- but they fail to mention the extreme racial tension in northern cities like Detriot, Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, and the rest. Not to mention "white flight".

The South has been the scapegoat for America's race problems for far too long. In fact the South was more integrated than the North in many ways- many Northerners I know have never even met black people.
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,489 posts, read 8,124,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I feel this is getting pretty repetitive, so I'm going to say my spiel one last time: You're arguing about geography, and I'm arguing about culture. Today -- not 100 or perhaps even 50 years ago -- Northeastern CULTURE has a stranglehold on the DC area, and I don't think anyone that hasn't been hiding under a rock would deny that.

Besides, you said the Mid-Atlantic shouldn't be considered the Northeast, but one of your sources claims that the collective region of the Northeast consists of New England and the Mid-Atlantic.
I will agree that D.C. is Northern compared the Deep South- and even Richmond. But in many ways, its still Southern when you compare it to Philadelphia, New York, Boston, and the other truly Northeastern cities. Even Baltimore which is only 40 miles away is much different than D.C.

But I would concur, that D.C. is a hybrid of Northern and Southern, but not totally Northeastern in its culture. Most folks in D.C. are friendly in the stores and say "hi, how are you?" Even the drivers aren't that bad..

This would make sense geographically also- since its only an hour south of the Mason Dixon line...

So I guess my point was , in comparison to the real Northeast, D.C. is more on the Southern side.
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Old 09-10-2007, 01:19 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,330 posts, read 19,543,632 times
Reputation: 18436
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasinger View Post
I don't think you have the right to make sweeping generalizations about my people like that. My ancestors did own slaves, but they were very very kind to them and freed most of them before the War. Many Northerners did not care about freeing slaves. They wanted to keep the South in the Union. By the same token, most Southerners were not slave owners.

Also some black people in the South also owned slaves, and Africans did sell their own into slavery. I'm not making excuses, but it was a different Era and a different time. Don't lay the racism card at this Southerners door step.

When black people migrated north and midwest they were not greeted with open arms by the whites of those areas. Many were treated worse than they were in the South . They talk a lot about isolated incidents like the Emmet Till case- but they fail to mention the extreme racial tension in northern cities like Detriot, Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, and the rest. Not to mention "white flight".

The South has been the scapegoat for America's race problems for far too long. In fact the South was more integrated than the North in many ways- many Northerners I know have never even met black people.
You are yourself making sweeping generations, yes? Your response here also reads as though you didn't entirely read my post. The south has been the focus of racial problems for obvious reasons. Get real, my friend.
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Old 09-10-2007, 01:22 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,330 posts, read 19,543,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasinger View Post
I will agree that D.C. is Northern compared the Deep South- and even Richmond. But in many ways, its still Southern when you compare it to Philadelphia, New York, Boston, and the other truly Northeastern cities. Even Baltimore which is only 40 miles away is much different than D.C.

But I would concur, that D.C. is a hybrid of Northern and Southern, but not totally Northeastern in its culture. Most folks in D.C. are friendly in the stores and say "hi, how are you?" Even the drivers aren't that bad..

This would make sense geographically also- since its only an hour south of the Mason Dixon line...

So I guess my point was , in comparison to the real Northeast, D.C. is more on the Southern side.
We agree here.
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Old 09-10-2007, 02:22 AM
 
Location: Richmond
1,489 posts, read 8,124,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckfush View Post
You are yourself making sweeping generations, yes? Your response here also reads as though you didn't entirely read my post. The south has been the focus of racial problems for obvious reasons. Get real, my friend.
The South for obvious reasons? Maybe because the South always had a large black population? The great migration of Blacks to the large northern cities which began in World War I, still did not change the demographics . In the South you will find black people in rural communities and black farmers. You will never find that in the North. You will also see more mixed marriages in the South than any place else. The North is racist in the worst way possible- not in my own backyard and a xenophobic mentality.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:35 AM
 
537 posts, read 1,711,853 times
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Sorry, I don't have the time or patience to sit and read through all of this dialogue, though it looks interesting. But since I commented in the other D.C. thread, I'll just repeat (i.e. copy and paste) what i said there and apply it to this thread -


I've been to D.C. several times - I guess you could say it that's a neutral zone. A person from Atlanta will tell you D.C. is up north, whereas a person from Boston will tell you it's in the South. But at the same time, as a native southerner, I can't imagine D.C. being considered "southern". No part of Virginia, Richmond, Hampton Roads, etc. feels very southern to me. I didn't see much difference between Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, and for that matter, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. To me Virginia is more like those states than the South. Even North Carolina is a little borderline if you ask me, but I'm a native Alabamaian. I guess compared to Alabama, Virginia is hardly "southern" but for northerners it feels just like the South. I never really understood how Virginia could be considered southern though. I've never met a person from VA with a southern accent. Everyone I know from there talks like they might as well be from Baltimore or Philly. As far as I'm concerned, the Mason-Dixon line is at the VA-NC border, not D.C.


Washington is a northern city now, and quite frankly, so is Richmond. I know at one point, even Baltimore was considered southern (slaves were sold there and Maryland was in fact, a slave state) but that was over 100 years ago. That has nothing to do with today.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Richmond
1,489 posts, read 8,124,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AQUEMINI331 View Post
Sorry, I don't have the time or patience to sit and read through all of this dialogue, though it looks interesting. But since I commented in the other D.C. thread, I'll just repeat (i.e. copy and paste) what i said there and apply it to this thread -


I've been to D.C. several times - I guess you could say it that's a neutral zone. A person from Atlanta will tell you D.C. is up north, whereas a person from Boston will tell you it's in the South. But at the same time, as a native southerner, I can't imagine D.C. being considered "southern". No part of Virginia, Richmond, Hampton Roads, etc. feels very southern to me. I didn't see much difference between Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, and for that matter, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. To me Virginia is more like those states than the South. Even North Carolina is a little borderline if you ask me, but I'm a native Alabamaian. I guess compared to Alabama, Virginia is hardly "southern" but for northerners it feels just like the South. I never really understood how Virginia could be considered southern though. I've never met a person from VA with a southern accent. Everyone I know from there talks like they might as well be from Baltimore or Philly. As far as I'm concerned, the Mason-Dixon line is at the VA-NC border, not D.C.


Washington is a northern city now, and quite frankly, so is Richmond. I know at one point, even Baltimore was considered southern (slaves were sold there and Maryland was in fact, a slave state) but that was over 100 years ago. That has nothing to do with today.
No part of Richmond feels Southern to you?? Are you sure? To me Richmond is more Southern than say Atlanta or Charlotte.

I would agree about Hampton Roads and NOVA because they are so transient- but Richmond oozes Southern.

Richmond is in no way shape or form a "northern" city. That is absurd.

In some ways Virginia rivals the Deep South in Southern things- like cooking, bbq, accents, etc.

Robert E. Lee was from Virginia and Richmond was the Capital of the Confederacy

Virginia was the Birthplace of Country Music. Country Music Legend Patsy Cline was from Winchester.

Lots of people in Virginia have Southern accents. Virginia was a Southern state before Alabama even existed.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,457 posts, read 7,523,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasinger View Post

So I guess my point was , in comparison to the real Northeast, D.C. is more on the Southern side.
Around and around we go. Haha.

Regardless of history, today DC is as culturally Northern as Boston, New York, or Philly, and I COME FROM THE NORTH, so, as I said before, I have a pretty good basis of comparison. It is just the fact of the matter that modern-day DC couldn't be any further removed from the South religiously, politically, and socially. The Washington Post article that was posted on this board today emphasized that pretty well. So, that said, while this has been a very interesting conversation that I suppose won't ever be settled, I'm done with my contribution. I suppose to moral of the story is: times change, and geography are culture and hardly synonymous.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,489 posts, read 8,124,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Around and around we go. Haha.

Regardless of history, today DC is as culturally Northern as Boston, New York, or Philly, and I COME FROM THE NORTH, so, as I said before, I have a pretty good basis of comparison. It is just the fact of the matter that modern-day DC couldn't be any further removed from the South religiously, politically, and socially. The Washington Post article that was posted on this board today emphasized that pretty well. So, that said, while this has been a very interesting conversation that I suppose won't ever be settled, I'm done with my contribution. I suppose to moral of the story is: times change, and geography and culture and hardly synonymous.
Virginia is not the North. If it is, then my ancestors are rolling in their graves.

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