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View Poll Results: Washington DC: Southern, Northern, or No Man's Land?
Northern City with Southern Overtones 13 33.33%
Southern city with Northern Overtones 4 10.26%
A hybrid of both 13 33.33%
No Man's Land- its neither duck nor pond. 9 23.08%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-28-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
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Another interesting fact: Frederick County, Maryland is part of the D.C. metro area and it is farther north than Baltimore.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:28 PM
 
4,954 posts, read 8,547,792 times
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Banjan,

Did you actually look at the WETA series? Because if you did, you would understand the evolution of DC. You keep harping on Jim Crow and segregation but the series made me realize that DC was one of the first cities in the free world where blacks attained politcal, socio and economic power. Look at Donnie Simpson's interview on WETA's website. He came from Detroit in the 70's and was amazed by what he saw in DC. Black anchors on TV, in the city council, running businesses etc... Your attempts to link DC to the south by mentioning Jim Crow is assinine.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,272 posts, read 26,279,915 times
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I know it sounds crazy when I say that DC and Atlanta are very similar. DC is more similar to Atlanta than it is to Philly, in a historical and cultural sense. Again, this is why:

Historically, Atlanta and DC are both cities with (1) a white elite class; (2) a sizeable black elite class and (3) a large black underclass. This is a product of de jure segregation. Schools such as Howard University and Spelman College were founded for that reason. A few blacks were able to amass wealth, status and power during segregation...they were essentially "rulers of the black people." The blacks in both cities never provided any type of threat to the white establishment. There was definitely more of a "social order" in both towns, which is why there was (and is) less overt racial hostility in DC and ATL.

The big difference between DC and northern cities is that you have a large white underclass that exists to this day. Blacks competed against undeducated whites for blue collar jobs, and competed against Irish and Italians at all levels of government, which obviously generated a lot of racial tension. Culturally, this is one of the biggest differences between the north and the south. My dad used to always tell me that 63rd Street was the boundary between blacks and Italians before the latter hightailed it out to Jersey and the PA burbs. If you were black, and went west of 63rd, you'd have kids chasing you down the streets with hockey sticks. If you were white and went east of 63rd, you might get chained to death. Whites and blacks in the north were more or less on equal footing with each other and in direct competition against each other for positions in city hall, schools, etc.

If you look at NYC and Philly today, you generally have a three way battle between Jews, blacks, and Italians for city hall. In NYC, you had Dinkins (black), Giuliani (Italian), and Bloomberg (Jewish) in succession. In Philly, it was Rizzo (Italian), Goode (black), and Rendell (Jewish) in succession. In DC and ATL, you are pretty much gonna have a black person in office, that is, until the cities gentrify enough where a member of the white elite can be voted into office. And that is why I say that ATL and DC are pretty similar in a socioeconomic, cultural, and political sense.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 12,162,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC's Finest View Post
Banjan,

Did you actually look at the WETA series? Because if you did, you would understand the evolution of DC. You keep harping on Jim Crow and segregation but the series made me realize that DC was one of the first cities in the free world where blacks attained politcal, socio and economic power. Look at Donnie Simpson's interview on WETA's website. He came from Detroit in the 70's and was amazed by what he saw in DC. Black anchors on TV, in the city council, running businesses etc... Your attempts to link DC to the south by mentioning Jim Crow is assinine.
The interesting thing though is that the exact same things can be said of Atlanta in the 70's. They are very, very similar in this regard.

The one HUGE difference between the two from this era is that one of the cities exploded into deadly riots after the death of MLK, Jr - and the other did not.
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Old 02-28-2010, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,279,357 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't doubt that those things affect culture. But my question is how have those same things changed DC in a way that Atlanta has not been changed? Atlanta is not dense, but it has loads of educated people, and high incomes relative to the rest of the country. And someone else mentioned something about the white people in DC not being southern. That's definitely the case in the District where you have a lot of carpetbaggers. But the same could be said for Atlanta...and it's perhaps even worse there.

During my four years in Atlanta, I probably met no more than a dozen people who were from there. I had an Italian hygienist from Pelham Bay, a mechanic from Passaic, NJ, a barber from my very own neighborhood in Philadelphia, and one of my best professors was a Jew from Flatbush, Brooklyn. Nobody in Atlanta, at least within I-285, is from there. The Atlanta metro area probably doubled in size within twenty years, and many of those people came from the northeast. In fact, there were so many Philadelphians in Atlanta that I ate at two hoagie shops (Gutbusters and Mr. Everything) on a regular basis and had my hair braided by a chick from West Philly who owned a shop there. I felt more at home there than I do in DC.

So you consider DC being part of the Jim Crow south a mere factoid?

Again, I think that Baltimore has far more of a northern feel to it than DC. I think any self-respecting Washingtonian would agree that the two cities are not the same.
I fully agree with your last sentence, the two cities are very different. Baltimore (located only 40mi. up the road) is basically a smaller Philadelphia, while DC is, uh...DC. Baltimore is overwhelmingly Northern, with a few Southern hints here and there. DC again, isn't a typical Northern city, but still more Northern than Southern.

Not everyone who lives in DC is a transplant, and I'm sure most of the indigenous population would also claim to be more Northern than Southern. For example Catholicism has long been a fixture part of DC. Georgetown U , which I mentioned earlier, is older than the city (founded when the town of G'town, was part of MD). Now in Atlanta, Catholicism has a presence almost purely because of transplants. Same deal with lacrosse. That wasn't brought to DC by transplants either. There are a lot of transplants in DC, but the majority live in Montgomery and Prince George's counties, and especailly Northern Virginia.

Well afaik, Jim Crow laws existed in nearly every state where both blacks and whites made up a significant portion of the population (i.e. nearly all of them), but there were mostly concentrated in the Deep South. My mom grew up in Hartford, CT and has mentioned the strong racial tensions involving busing blacks to desegregate schools in Hartford as well as Boston.

During the Great Migration DC's black population increased, while every single state south of it had a decrease in population. Also, DC lacked the anti-miscegenation laws present if every state south of it (and Delaware). In fact, the interracal couple who were the defendants in the Loving v. Virginia case were married in DC.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
7,732 posts, read 12,162,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
Now in Atlanta, Catholicism has a presence almost purely because of transplants.
Sigh......you really need to stop commenting on anything related to Atlanta with such authority.

Catholics were the first organized practicing religious group in Atlanta (1846), beating out the Baptists and Methodists.
Atlanta Catholic Centennial
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:38 AM
 
4,954 posts, read 8,547,792 times
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Banjan,

Blacks and whites were on equal footing in the north? Are you serious? Black people have always been the last to know and the first to go. Your tainted view of this racial utopia did not exist in northern cities at all. Historically, industry jobs in the north were given to (Irish, Jews, Italians) whites. Blacks had to take what was left over and then they were given lower pay for the same job. Where is the equal footing you speak of? You can't be an African American with a crazy statement like that.

Blacks in DC were able to escape some of this because of government and their pay scales. But they still were treated unfairly. Instead of working on the docks, blacks were the service class as you say, working as butlers, drivers, typist, maintenance etc... This is the 1950's! Only the most educated blacks were given similar work as whites with lesser education but with less pay.

You keep making similar comparisons between DC and Atlanta because of their black populations. Well, let's take a look at DC and Atlanta's white populations. Atlanta also had poor white people like Philly and Baltimore. DC never really had poor a$$ white people because government has always paid more than industry/factory jobs. DC developed around government. Areas like Petworth, Columbia Heights, Brightwood etc.. were once white. DC is a snapshot of any northern city in the 50's & 60's. Georgetown was dominated by the Irish. In the 50's, Jews dominated Petworth. Maury Povich went to Cardozo High School. It was all white at the time. Do some research! White flight hit DC just like it hit Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore and Philly! Blacks migrated to cities like Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Baltimore, NYC and DC because of jobs and opportunity. Government is DC's industry, so DC is no different!

As for racial hostility. I don't think you know your DC history. DC was one of the first cities where blacks stood up against police aggression, equal rights and demanded fair pay. This is before MLK! You do know that there were riots in DC, Baltimore, Philly, Detroit, Watts?

BTW: The Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is the number six Catholic Pilgrimage destination in the US. The other 5 are in NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Mexico and Emmitsburgh, Maryland.

Last edited by DC's Finest; 03-01-2010 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:05 PM
 
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Having lived here on and off for fifteen years, and hailing originally from the Deep South, I can say with some authority that DC is about a hundred percent Yankee-fied.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,279,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnatl View Post
Sigh......you really need to stop commenting on anything related to Atlanta with such authority.

Catholics were the first organized practicing religious group in Atlanta (1846), beating out the Baptists and Methodists.
Atlanta Catholic Centennial
I didn't say there weren't any Catholics in Atlanta. I said that they've never had a major presence until transplants started moving in.

A quick history: Washington DC was a part of the Province of Maryland when 1st Baron Baltimore founded the first English Catholic settlement in the nation in St. Mary's County, MD. Over the following centuries the first Catholic diocese (Diocese of Baltimore, which included DC), the first Catholic cathedral, and the first and second Catholic institutions of higher-learning (Mount St. Mary's and Georgetown) were founded in DC/MD.

Washington DC, as well as Montgomery, Prince George's, St. Mary's, Calvert, and Charles Counties, are part of the Archdiocese of Washington. (the other MD counties are part of the Archdiosese of Baltimore or Diocese of Wilmington) Atlanta, and 69 counties in Northern GA, are part of the Archdiocese of Atlanta.

Percent of pop. Catholic in each diocese's territory:

1966
Washington-20.7%
Atlanta-2.0%
Richmond ('65)-5.3%
Baltimore ('64)-22.7%
Wilmington (DE/MD)-16.2%

2004
Washington-21.7%
Atlanta-6.3%
Richmond-4.5%
Baltimore-16.9%
Wilmington (DE/MD)-18.5%

As a sidenote: The United Methodist Church groups Washington in the Northeastern Jurisdiciton as part of the Balt-Wash Conference. (The SBC groups each state as its own convention )

feel free to point out any mistakes
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,272 posts, read 26,279,915 times
Reputation: 11734
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC's Finest View Post
Banjan,

Blacks and whites were on equal footing in the north? Are you serious? Black people have always been the last to know and the first to go. Your tainted view of this racial utopia did not exist in northern cities at all. Historically, industry jobs in the north were given to (Irish, Jews, Italians) whites. Blacks had to take what was left over and then they were given lower pay for the same job. Where is the equal footing you speak of? You can't be an African American with a crazy statement like that.

Blacks in DC were able to escape some of this because of government and their pay scales. But they still were treated unfairly. Instead of working on the docks, blacks were the service class as you say, working as butlers, drivers, typist, maintenance etc... This is the 1950's! Only the most educated blacks were given similar work as whites with lesser education but with less pay.

You keep making similar comparisons between DC and Atlanta because of their black populations. Well, let's take a look at DC and Atlanta's white populations. Atlanta also had poor white people like Philly and Baltimore. DC never really had poor a$$ white people because government has always paid more than industry/factory jobs. DC developed around government. Areas like Petworth, Columbia Heights, Brightwood etc.. were once white. DC is a snapshot of any northern city in the 50's & 60's. Georgetown was dominated by the Irish. In the 50's, Jews dominated Petworth. Maury Povich went to Cardozo High School. It was all white at the time. Do some research! White flight hit DC just like it hit Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore and Philly! Blacks migrated to cities like Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Baltimore, NYC and DC because of jobs and opportunity. Government is DC's industry, so DC is no different!

As for racial hostility. I don't think you know your DC history. DC was one of the first cities where blacks stood up against police aggression, equal rights and demanded fair pay. This is before MLK! You do know that there were riots in DC, Baltimore, Philly, Detroit, Watts?

BTW: The Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception is the number six Catholic Pilgrimage destination in the US. The other 5 are in NYC, Philly, Baltimore, Mexico and Emmitsburgh, Maryland.
Atlanta had poor white people like Philly and B-More? The West End, Vine City, Lower Decatur, and Cascade were all solidly middle class and white. The area around Greenbriar Mall was relatively affluent and predominantly white in the 50s and 60s. In fact, I-20 was built to separate affluent whites from blacks. I suppose if you go back far enough, say for instance, the beginning of the industrial age, you can find poor white people in any city. But if you provide the evidence, I'll believe it.

And no, DC was not a snapshot of any northern city in the 1950s. It was NEVER a northern city or even like a northern city. Who on earth ever thinks of Washington, DC as a melting pot? People think the White House, monuments, and guys wearing trench coats. Sorry, Washington, DC does not conjure images of the poor, sick Vito Andolini moving from Sicily and taking up refuge in America. It is not close to being northern.

And I wasn't talking about the riots of '68. I meant actual open conflict between different races. For example, Jews and blacks had open conflict in Crown Heights in the 90s. Irish and Blacks had open conflict in Gray's Ferry in the 90s. I'm not talking about blacks simply rioting after King's assassination.

http://wcbstv.com/local/crown.heights.violence.2.730761.html (broken link)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grays_F...,_Pennsylvania

Last edited by BajanYankee; 03-02-2010 at 08:33 PM..
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