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View Poll Results: Washington DC: Southern, Northern, or No Man's Land?
Northern City with Southern Overtones 13 33.33%
Southern city with Northern Overtones 4 10.26%
A hybrid of both 13 33.33%
No Man's Land- its neither duck nor pond. 9 23.08%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-07-2010, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Richmond
631 posts, read 1,140,568 times
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Virginia, Maryland, and DC are mid-Atlantic (some might even claim PA as mid-lantic).

You have New England (Mass, CT, VT, RI, ME, NH...)
Northeast (NY, NJ, Del, PA)
Mid-Atlantic (VA, DC, MD, WV)
South (NC, SC, GA, Tenn, KY)
Deep South (MS, LA, AL, AR)

To go even further into this you have the Mid-West (OH, IN, IL, MI, WI, MO, IA, MN)
South-West (OK, TX, NM, CO, AZ, UT)
West (CA, OR, WA, NV)
Plains (KS, NE, ND, SD, WY, MT, ID)

Alaska, Florida, and Hawaii are each in their own class

Last edited by RVA-Jsn20; 03-07-2010 at 09:43 PM..
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Old 03-07-2010, 10:50 PM
 
Location: metro ATL
8,190 posts, read 12,322,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVA-Jsn20 View Post
Virginia, Maryland, and DC are mid-Atlantic (some might even claim PA as mid-lantic).

You have New England (Mass, CT, VT, RI, ME, NH...)
Northeast (NY, NJ, Del, PA)
Mid-Atlantic (VA, DC, MD, WV)
South (NC, SC, GA, Tenn, KY)
Deep South (MS, LA, AL, AR)

I don't think you can claim WV as mid-Atlantic since it doesn't actually border the Atlantic. And I can understand VA's classification as mid-Atlantic geographically speaking, but I consider it to be Southern before mid-Atlantic.
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Old 03-07-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,320 posts, read 2,744,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06 View Post
I don't think you can claim WV as mid-Atlantic since it doesn't actually border the Atlantic. And I can understand VA's classification as mid-Atlantic geographically speaking, but I consider it to be Southern before mid-Atlantic.
Here's the Wikipedia article on Mid-Atlantic

Mid-Atlantic states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is what it says about VA/WV
Quote:
Virginia and West Virginia are atypical of this region in several ways. They are the only states to lie primarily within the southern American dialect region [8], and the major religious tradition in both states is Evangelical Christian, 31% in Virginia and 36% in West Virginia.[9] Although a few of West Virginia's eastern panhandle counties are considered part of the Washington, D.C. MSA, the major portion of the state is rural, and there are no major or even large cities.[10]
And here's the PBS map for "Do You Speak American"

Do You Speak American . What Speech Do We Like Best? . Mapping | PBS

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Old 03-07-2010, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,275,927 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
My last post was strictly tongue-in-cheek. Glad to see that the sarcasm detectors are as acute as I thought they'd be...

Anyways, I will address each fact in turn.

1. Virginia (even the northern part) was not part of the Union. Maryland, as I stated before, had very strong confederate sympathies. The District didn't have much of a choice since it was a federal city and not really even a population center at the time.

2. Without even delving into this data, let's understand that "Catholic" is a proxy for "working class, blue collar white people." It's not just Catholics per se, but a certain type of Catholic. When CNN had a special during the 2008 election about the "Catholic" voters who weren't voting for Barack Obama, they were not talking about the ilk of Lord Celcius Calvert who drive Subarus and send their kids to St. Albans. They were talking about the people from Chris Matthews' neighborhood in NE Philadelphia who wear hard hats, carry lunch pails and absolutely despise "spooks" and "moolies." They were essentially talking about Italian and Irish enclaves in northern cities, but couldn't be so politically incorrect as to come out and actually say that. The Northeastern U.S. is defined more by the latter than the former. That might sound offensive, but I'm just being honest.

3. Yes, DC is a denser city than Atlanta. And this makes it less southern because...

4. Baltimore has NO subway system. It still has more in common with Philadelphia, which is a northern city, than D.C. does.

5. First, this data is based on precincts reporting in Fulton County, which encompasses the city of Atlanta. So this data also includes the suburbs of Alpharetta and N. Fulton, which are naturally more right-leaning than the city of Atlanta itself. In the city of Atlanta, with its high concentration of blacks and liberal whites, Obama probably ran up the score just as he did in the District. If you look at Dekalb County, where Emory University is located (and also a small slice of the city of Atlanta), Obama really tallied up the votes.

The District of Columbia is virtually 100% Democratic because all you have are blacks and trust fund babies. If you had to toss half of Loudoun County's population into the District, that number would not be so skewed.

6. Again, the District of Columbia can do this because it is its very own political jurisdiction. If it were not for home rule, I don't think same-sex marriage would be legal in the District (Congress would not allow it). It would be legal in Atlanta, but the state legislature prohibits municipalities from legalizing it. What does that have to do with the progressivism of the city? Philadelphia (Pennsylvania) and NYC (New York State) (and Jersey New Jersey Senate Defeats Same-Sex Marriage Bill, 20 to 14 - NYTimes.com) don't have same-sex marriage either. Does that make those cities any less northern? Philly can't even impose a hand gun ban, which every other major city on the Coast has, because Harrisburg won't let cities do it.

7. You also seem to always drive at this point that liberalism (political, economic, and social) is one of the hallmarks of a northern city. I assure you that it is not. Compared to Washington, DC, Philadelphia is, I think, fairly conservative. When white voters vote Democratic in Philly, they are not voting for civil rights, gay marriage, and preserving the ozone layer. I mean, there are some voters who vote for that stuff, but most are working class people who are frustrated by globalization. They are pro-union voters. They are pocketbook voters who are just as likely to vote Republican (on the national level, NEVER on the state and local level) if they feel it serves their best interests. These are people who have pretty conservative attitudes about abortion, welfare, guns, and especially race. That Jesse Helms ad would get traction in Philly, but not DC.
Okay some responses to your responses:

1. Yeah, Virginia is definitely Southern. However, Northern Virginia, and let me be specific by saying Arlington and Fairfax Counties, as well as Alexandria and Falls Church, is more Northern than Southern becuase of its proximity to DC. There's a number of traces of Southern culture in the area, such as high schools and roads named after Confederate generals (Jeff. Davis Hwy and Lee Hwy), low-density development in Ffx, and a stronger conservative base than in the Maryland suburbs, but the area still has more Northern qualities, especially Arlington County. Many agree that "Southern culture" starts to dominate at Fredericksburg on I-95 (although obviously there's no definite North/South border).

Maryland's confederate sympathies by a minority of its residents a century ago doesn't make it Southern.

DC wasn't forced into the Union. The vast majority of residents supported the Union and embraced arriving Union troops. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was written by a DC resident in support of the Union.

2. I understand about "blue-collar" Catholic populations, but DC just isn't a blue-collar city--the major difference between it and other Northern cities. Less than 30 min. up the road Baltimore has a very substantial working class, Catholic Irish population. Catholic is Catholic, and no Southern city has the Catholic heritage DC has (except maybe in LA, Texas, and S. Florida because of Spanish/French colonization).

3. ...because high population density is a trait of Northern cities, while low density is a trait of Southern cities. It's a very strong proven, correlation (something you look for in comparisons such as this one). Miami (and other SF cities) is the only major city in the South with a pop. density higher than 5K/sq. mile (DC's pop. density), while practically every Northeastern city has a population density higher than that. Population density also has a very strong impact on culture (recreation, living style, travel etc.)

4. Actually Baltimore does have a subway system, as well as a light rail system (with another line to be constructed soon), and a commuter rail system (which it shares with DC). I agree with your second sentence.

5. I'm not sure about your demographics "facts" but Loudoun County is a mostly rural county in Virginia 30 min from DC. Montgomery and Prince George's County in Maryland (the latter which provided Obama's best performance in the entire country) are very liberal.

6. The same-sex marriage thing was to prove how liberal DC is. Keep in mind that Pennsylvania is easily the most conservative Northeastern state.

7. Philadelphia is still liberal, just not in an overt San Francisco kind of way. It's the same thing in Baltimore. Neither are very liberal, but they're decidedly more liberal than the average American city. Washington DC is a very liberal city though. Look at this ranking: Study Ranks America's Most Liberal and Conservative Cities How many Southern cities do you see in the top 25? 0 Yet Philly is #18. 80% of Philadelphia residents are registered Democrats. Only 16% of the city voted Republican in 2008.
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Old 03-07-2010, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Germantown, MD
1,359 posts, read 3,275,927 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by RVA-Jsn20 View Post
Virginia, Maryland, and DC are mid-Atlantic (some might even claim PA as mid-lantic).

You have New England (Mass, CT, VT, RI, ME, NH...)
Northeast (NY, NJ, Del, PA)
Mid-Atlantic (VA, DC, MD, WV)
South (NC, SC, GA, Tenn, KY)
Deep South (MS, LA, AL, AR)
The thing with Mid-Atlantic is that everyone has a different definition for it. Maryland and DC are probably the only jurisdictions always included. The media, as well as local businesses, refer to DC Area as Mid-Atlantic far more than anything else.

However the most popular definition I've seen, and the one I use is simply the Northeastern states not part of New England: DC, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, WV. In other words the NE is split between the Mid-Atlantic and NE. WV is definitely the odd one out of the group, being sandwhiced between North, South, and Midwest.

As for the South. The Upper South would include: KY, VA, TN, NC. The Deep South would be: SC, GA, AL, MS, LA (and culturally speaking, N. Fla). South Florida is a region by itself. Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas (and maybe parts of MO) make up another Southern region as well.
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Old 03-08-2010, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,320 posts, read 2,744,944 times
Reputation: 1459
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
The thing with Mid-Atlantic is that everyone has a different definition for it. Maryland and DC are probably the only jurisdictions always included. The media, as well as local businesses, refer to DC Area as Mid-Atlantic far more than anything else.

However the most popular definition I've seen, and the one I use is simply the Northeastern states not part of New England: DC, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, WV. In other words the NE is split between the Mid-Atlantic and NE. WV is definitely the odd one out of the group, being sandwhiced between North, South, and Midwest.

As for the South. The Upper South would include: KY, VA, TN, NC. The Deep South would be: SC, GA, AL, MS, LA (and culturally speaking, N. Fla). South Florida is a region by itself. Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Texas (and maybe parts of MO) make up another Southern region as well.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to link WV with the Mid-Atlantic. Neither population, income, language, religion, identity, diversity, infrastructure. Over 70% of the state is forested, the major portion is rural. And I rarely see WV listed as Mid-Atlantic without VA. Even Wikipedia doesn't really consider it part of the region. There has to be a reason to put things into groups. Like the Sesame Street game-
Quote:
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
WV doesn't belong.

2000 US Census map with Telsur Southern dialect line in red.

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Old 03-08-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,631 posts, read 27,042,193 times
Reputation: 9576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06 View Post
That's a tricky question. I'd say that many of the residential areas were, but not as much of the office/commercial areas, particularly the non-government buildings.
I can get with that. Now that I think about it, some areas built around the metro stations are indeed residential units due to metro for gentrification. Areas like Columbia Heights is centered around Metro. Same with a few areas like Fort Totton, Mt. Vernon Convention Center, and more in the city.
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Old 03-08-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,249 posts, read 26,220,119 times
Reputation: 11706
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpterp View Post
Okay some responses to your responses:

1. Yeah, Virginia is definitely Southern. However, Northern Virginia, and let me be specific by saying Arlington and Fairfax Counties, as well as Alexandria and Falls Church, is more Northern than Southern becuase of its proximity to DC. There's a number of traces of Southern culture in the area, such as high schools and roads named after Confederate generals (Jeff. Davis Hwy and Lee Hwy), low-density development in Ffx, and a stronger conservative base than in the Maryland suburbs, but the area still has more Northern qualities, especially Arlington County. Many agree that "Southern culture" starts to dominate at Fredericksburg on I-95 (although obviously there's no definite North/South border).

Maryland's confederate sympathies by a minority of its residents a century ago doesn't make it Southern.

DC wasn't forced into the Union. The vast majority of residents supported the Union and embraced arriving Union troops. The Battle Hymn of the Republic was written by a DC resident in support of the Union.

2. I understand about "blue-collar" Catholic populations, but DC just isn't a blue-collar city--the major difference between it and other Northern cities. Less than 30 min. up the road Baltimore has a very substantial working class, Catholic Irish population. Catholic is Catholic, and no Southern city has the Catholic heritage DC has (except maybe in LA, Texas, and S. Florida because of Spanish/French colonization).

3. ...because high population density is a trait of Northern cities, while low density is a trait of Southern cities. It's a very strong proven, correlation (something you look for in comparisons such as this one). Miami (and other SF cities) is the only major city in the South with a pop. density higher than 5K/sq. mile (DC's pop. density), while practically every Northeastern city has a population density higher than that. Population density also has a very strong impact on culture (recreation, living style, travel etc.)

4. Actually Baltimore does have a subway system, as well as a light rail system (with another line to be constructed soon), and a commuter rail system (which it shares with DC). I agree with your second sentence.

5. I'm not sure about your demographics "facts" but Loudoun County is a mostly rural county in Virginia 30 min from DC. Montgomery and Prince George's County in Maryland (the latter which provided Obama's best performance in the entire country) are very liberal.

6. The same-sex marriage thing was to prove how liberal DC is. Keep in mind that Pennsylvania is easily the most conservative Northeastern state.

7. Philadelphia is still liberal, just not in an overt San Francisco kind of way. It's the same thing in Baltimore. Neither are very liberal, but they're decidedly more liberal than the average American city. Washington DC is a very liberal city though. Look at this ranking: Study Ranks America's Most Liberal and Conservative Cities How many Southern cities do you see in the top 25? 0 Yet Philly is #18. 80% of Philadelphia residents are registered Democrats. Only 16% of the city voted Republican in 2008.
1. I'd actually say that DC is less Southern than southern Virginia; I wouldn't say that it's more Northern. NW DC reminds me of San Francisco in many ways. What do you think?

2. Catholic is not just a reference to blue-collar whites, but blue-collar whites who retain a strong ethnic identity. That's a big thing in all northern cities, right? I'm not sure if DC ever had this. I'm sure DC's Finest or someone else will let me know if I'm wrong. I've just never heard anyone in this area say "Don't push me, I'm a Bethesda Italian!"

3. I agree that density has an effect on lifestyle, but I'm not so sure about culture. How does that change the actual culture of a city?

4. Didn't know B-more had a sub. Apparently, it's only one line. But a sub nonetheless.

5. You were comparing the District of Columbia to Atlanta, no? My point was that it was not an apples-to-apples comparison. You were really comparing D.C. proper to Fulton County, which is much larger (and conservative) than the city of Atlanta. The CNN map has stats for Fulton County, but not the city of Atlanta. The only fair comparison is Atlanta proper to the District of Columbia.

6. Why can't you prove how liberal a city is based on the size and presence of the gay population? There has to be a reason why gay people move there, no? I don't think same-sex laws are a good indicator of anything. If NYC could secede from New York State, I'm sure same-sex marriage would be legal there too.

7. Detroit is the most liberal city in America, really? More liberal than Cambridge, Berkley, Austin, Portland, New York City, and God forbid, San Francisco?!? No wonder why Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and his army of conservative listeners have been calling for the downfall of the American auto industry.

The site you linked to actually says that the most liberal cities, coincidentally, have large African American populations. Detroit happens to be 90% African American. Hmm?

But yes, I would agree that Philly is more liberal than, say, Birmingham.
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Old 03-08-2010, 04:53 PM
 
4,953 posts, read 8,535,344 times
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Banjan,

Did you ever read my post about areas of DC like Petworth, Columbia Heights, Mt Pleasant, Parkview and Brightwood being all white in the 40's & 50's? They were mostly all Jewish middle class enclaves. Maury Povich talks about this along with his early years growing up in DC. Cardoza HS was all white, along with Roosevelt and Coolidge. Blacks started to move in these areas in late 50's early 60's. This movement along with the development of the national highway system caused white flight to the burbs. DT DC used to have major retail in the areas from 14th to 7th streets between E, F, G and H streets. All of these stores and shops were owned by Jewish people. As they moved out of the city, their stores went with them.

Density definitley has some tangible effects on culture. Meaning that, most museums, theaters, arenas, art galleries, etc... are most likely in the densest part of their communities. Look at it from this perspective. Major cities with the highest density, usually have better cultural ammenities. There are some exceptions but very few.
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Old 03-08-2010, 05:08 PM
 
Location: NYC
457 posts, read 940,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akhenaton06 View Post
I agree with you in terms of the way DC is built, but I also think it's worth noting that a lot (certainly not all, but a lot) of this is due to the development of the Metro system, which only came about in the 1970's. The city was able to urbanize like it was after the Metro was established because it is a consummately planned city. In other words, DC shares common urban features with many Northern cities, but it doesn't really share their urban history. This is one of the reasons why I consider DC to be unique in so many respects. I'm not taking away from your point, but just wanted to add that observation.
With all due respect, I would have to disagree with this. As has been pointed out, DC's population peaked in the 1950s at round 800,000. The city basically then took a 40-45 year nose dive, with the pop falling over 200k. Downtown used to have several big department stores, and lots of vibrant retail strips (H Street, U Street). Many remain a shell of their former selves.

It is really only in the past 10 years or so that you can really point to any Metro-oriented residential development in the city (U Street, Columbia Heights, etc).

Even with the recent growth, the city's pop is still lower than when the system opened in the 1970s (700k).

While it is true the city developed later and never had the industrial, immigrant culture of Bos/Bal/Philly, it was urban well before metro. The pop density in the 50s was far closer to Bos/Phil than Atlanta or any other southern city. I think it would be more accurate to say that DC is recovering its urban past after a long period of decline.

Now when it comes to the suburbs (Arlington, Bethesda, Silver Spring) I would completely AGREE that the METRO has played a big role in their urbanization.

Last edited by Caymon83; 03-08-2010 at 05:21 PM..
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