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Old 01-12-2012, 06:16 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,846 posts, read 14,863,515 times
Reputation: 3509

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Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
It's a straight-up yes-or-no question. What is your answer?
I answered your question with details and specificity. I am not going to play your little game of trying to trap me into some kind of yes or no answer that fits your premise, so you can make a point.

Sorry....move on.
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Old 01-12-2012, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,846 posts, read 14,863,515 times
Reputation: 3509
Quote:
Originally Posted by joep2 View Post
However, they, individually have reduced their own % burden down significantly over recent decades and that has shifted more wealth to them at the expense of the rest of the country.
Please qualify and explain your comment "at the expense of the rest of the country." Wealth is not a zero sum game. Someone else being wealthy doesn't make you poor.

First, as I've stated and many others have as well, the top wage earners have always shouldered a higher and disproportionate burden of the taxes. Some of that is inherent by the fact that if you make more, you pay more. As I indicated though, the top 5% wage earners pay far more as a % of taxes (59%) than what they make both as a % of wages (32%), and their representation in the population (5%).

The Tax Foundation - Summary of Latest Federal Individual Income Tax Data

"The top-earning 5 percent of taxpayers (AGI equal to or greater than $154,643), however, still paid far more than the bottom 95 percent. The top 5 percent earned 31.7 percent of the nation's adjusted gross income, but paid approximately 58.7 percent of federal individual income taxes."

The other fact that gets ignored is that the bottom 50% of wage earners have stopped paying federal income tax. So not only does the top 10% pay almost all of the federal income taxes, but the bottom 50% pays almost NOTHING (roughly 2% of federal income taxes).

Now...you can spin any kind of class warfare you want, but I want to know where the "fairness" is with that kind of system? If you want fair, then everyone is taxed equally at the same rate, and the more you make, the more you pay in taxes. Please explain to me how that's unfair?
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Old 01-20-2012, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Cummin Jawja
40 posts, read 47,593 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by joep2 View Post
The top % has the vast majority of the wealth so yes they pay a lot of the federal income tax.

However, they, individually have reduced their own % burden down significantly over recent decades and that has shifted more wealth to them at the expense of the rest of the country.

Look at any data, and you'll see that the post war decades where the top paid a little more % of their wealth in taxes and overall EVERYBODY did better.

That's a fact.

Oh it is indeed a FACT but you say it as if it is due to the tax rate and nothing else which is FALSE. Oh and WEALTH does not equate to INCOME exactly. See I could be a billionaire and not have any income and not pay any income taxes. Or I could be upper middle class and not really have any wealth a have a 20% federal income tax rate.


And what are the stats for the years that are not 2009?

I love how the AM radio entertainment crowd pulls on perfect storm height of conservative recession number to skew their claim.
The truth is we now have a larger percentage not paying federal income taxes than before. We also have a larger percentage not paying payroll taxes.

The more govt fiddles with the tax laws in an attempt to make it FAIR the more they mess it up.

I happen to agree with Neil that we should move to a consumption based tax system and exempt basic neccessities (I would include rent/mortgage and clothing as well as basic food stuff). AND I agree that nearly everyone should pay something. Without skin in the game you don't really care how wasteful govt is since it aint costing you.

Kinda like the claim that most of america pays a higher percentage than Romney's 15% and acting like only republicans pay that sort of rate. Or that capital gains ought to be taxed at the same rate as earned income.

Oh and YES I believe the middle and lower classes should pay more FEDERAL income taxes if they aint paying their fair share of taxes. Now what do you think is a fair share that EVERYONE should pay?

Oh hey can you explain how a tax cut that was mostly about 5% across the board is a tax cut for the rich and a payroll tax holiday of 2% on everyone who actually pays those taxes is a tax cut for the middle class?
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Cummin Jawja
40 posts, read 47,593 times
Reputation: 16
Neil I can answer that fairness question. It aint "FAIR" because the rich don't pay enough of course.

Alas one only need go check out some of the things that JFK said in order to better understand the truth.

It seems tho that many would prefer we go back to the tax rates PRE JFK. Heck I wish the govt would do just that so that the middle and lower class could see just how hard the govt hit everyone with taxes back then.

I knew guys back when the top tax rate was only 50% who quit earning income when they got close to that top rate.. They could live just fine on $190 k and not have to pay Uncle Sam half of every dollar they earned for the rest of the year. They told me that the fishin and huntin was good...

Course I am of the opinion that a bad day on the golf course is better than a good day at work. (providing of course no one got hurt PHYSICALLY)
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Old 01-20-2012, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,215 posts, read 4,271,469 times
Reputation: 3011
It is very, very difficult to not accuse some people of dishonesty when they won't just come out and admit that they want a tax hike on the middle class.

I, for one, am completely against such a thing.
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Old 01-20-2012, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,846 posts, read 14,863,515 times
Reputation: 3509
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
It is very, very difficult to not accuse some people of dishonesty when they won't just come out and admit that they want a tax hike on the middle class.

I, for one, am completely against such a thing.
Don't call me dishonest. I have been honest and given you an answer. I can't make it any plainer than that, but I will not give "yes or no" answers when it doesn't convey my honest feelings.

Now...once more for the learning disabled:

I'm in favor of everyone paying a share of taxes. Let's call it their "fair share" for lack of a better term. What that means is people share in the burden of running the country, the state, and the local municipalities, and in paying the bills for those governments. No one is allowed to pay nothing while others pay a disproportionate share. Tax everyone at the same rate, and those who make more will pay more. Simple enough for even the learning disabled (or liberals) to understand.

Now, if that results in some people who have paid too little paying more, that's fine with me. If others who have paid too much get a break, that's also fine. The gov't should not use the tax code to punish or reward people based on their economic or social status.

Clear enough?
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Central FL
1,382 posts, read 3,263,223 times
Reputation: 1181
Looks like GA wants to shift more burden to sales taxes and less to income taxes.

I think this is a bad idea. I've lived in both FL and GA and it seems like GA has a much better budget picture. FL has no state income tax, so we depend heavily upon sales taxes to fund everything from education to Medicaid. Sales taxes are still coming in well under projections, so we face a $2 BILLION budget deficit for 2012.

I read that income tax receipts were up in GA while sales taxes were still falling. Relying more in sales taxes leads to more budget uncertainty and might undermine the future of your state. Spending on things like deepening the port of Savannah and keeping education funding at least level will put GA ahead. I would hate to see you shift into reverse like we have here in FL.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Georgia
5,215 posts, read 4,271,469 times
Reputation: 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Don't call me dishonest. I have been honest and given you an answer. I can't make it any plainer than that, but I will not give "yes or no" answers when it doesn't convey my honest feelings.

Now...once more for the learning disabled:

I'm in favor of everyone paying a share of taxes. Let's call it their "fair share" for lack of a better term. What that means is people share in the burden of running the country, the state, and the local municipalities, and in paying the bills for those governments. No one is allowed to pay nothing while others pay a disproportionate share. Tax everyone at the same rate, and those who make more will pay more. Simple enough for even the learning disabled (or liberals) to understand.

Now, if that results in some people who have paid too little paying more, that's fine with me. If others who have paid too much get a break, that's also fine. The gov't should not use the tax code to punish or reward people based on their economic or social status.

Clear enough?
Neil, I would have let the matter go if you would have just come out and said yes or no, or whatever else if it was more complicated, and agreed to disagree. I don't think you realize how much your comments come across to me as "your hand got caught in the cookie jar." Because if I were the one in the wrong here, there'd be no reason for you to get so defensive.
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Old 01-22-2012, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,846 posts, read 14,863,515 times
Reputation: 3509
Quote:
Originally Posted by toll_booth View Post
Neil, I would have let the matter go if you would have just come out and said yes or no, or whatever else if it was more complicated, and agreed to disagree. I don't think you realize how much your comments come across to me as "your hand got caught in the cookie jar." Because if I were the one in the wrong here, there'd be no reason for you to get so defensive.
We're getting way off topic, but I think you're deluding yourself here. My comments are in no way defensive and in fact you could even call them "offensive" if you want. I take offense to your calling me dishonest and I hold to my opinion and comments.

Your ridiculous stunt of trying to get me to declare yes or no to a presupposition of your own making is a bit insulting and your continuing to press the issue just confounds me, since I have commented sufficiently.

I'm done here.
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Georgia
5,215 posts, read 4,271,469 times
Reputation: 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
We're getting way off topic, but I think you're deluding yourself here. My comments are in no way defensive and in fact you could even call them "offensive" if you want. I take offense to your calling me dishonest and I hold to my opinion and comments.

Your ridiculous stunt of trying to get me to declare yes or no to a presupposition of your own making is a bit insulting and your continuing to press the issue just confounds me, since I have commented sufficiently.

I'm done here.
Uh, okay then.
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