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Old 01-30-2009, 11:19 AM
 
898 posts, read 1,295,385 times
Reputation: 1007

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
Criminals "boil my bones" and "frost my rear" and other cliches as well. Illegal aliens are criminals by definition. There is no amount of politically correct euphemisms or nicey nice double speak that can change that fact.

The ends don't justify the means. If your country treats you badly and you feel you have no opportunity there, that doesn't give you a free pass to break the laws of another country and decide to move in.
Spoken like a true decendant of people who felt they were being treated badly and moved to another country, purpousely killed the natives who were already there to get them out of the way of the "newfound" land they claimed then kidnapped natives of other countries that were being conquered in order to enslave them to do the hard labor.

This whole country and its way of life was built by breaking laws and the way of life of the citizenry was maintained by doing the same.
I'm a LEGAL immigrant who was lucky enough to have family in this country that sponsored my parents, my brother and I. We waited nearly 10 years for our papers to go through and, by the time they did, things in my country (El Salvador) were so bad that we might have even come here illegaly had they not gone through. My country was in a civil war at the time and children 12 and up were being "recruited" by both sides. The war lasted 11 years thanks to interference and aid from the US government to the corrupt government of El Salvador just so that they could keep up the appearance of a democratic El Salvador. God forbid that there be a socialist country so close to the good ol' USA so they trained the governemt troops and supplied them with money and weapons. Nevermind that they indiscriminately slaughtered teachers and whole families for simply living in areas where rebels where known to be.

The same kind of thing goes on all over the world all the time. They're doing it in Iraq and Israel, in China and any other country that you can think of where America decides that they need to stick their nose into because it allows us to have cheap underwear and gasoline.

Meanwhile you have the so-called-citizens of this country complaining about their jobs being taken away by illegal aliens when they're being given away to people in other countries anyway since you've all grown so spoiled that you expect to get paid $10/hr+ and full benefits for unskilled labor. Just look at what's going on with the car manufacturers. They're not selling any less cars but they keep taking a loss because their union workers are making over 30/hr but they refuse to take a pay cut in order for their companies to stay afloat. Don't they realize that they won't be making ANY money if the companies go under?

Funny how nobody complains about the Persians or Koreans who come here on tourist visas, get welfare, go to school, get student visas after their tourist visas expire and then get approved for small business loans faster than any citizen does. Then they find loopholes to continue to receive welfare while they're driving a benz and shopping at prada. But, hey, they keep up appearances by living in better neighborhoods so everything is fine, right?

That case with the officer that was posted just proves my point. Nobody cares as long as appearances are kept or as long as it's just one person doing it. The guy became a cop; show me where the malice that so many of you are apt to associate with immigrants (or should I say all hispanics?) was in his case? He definitely paid taxes so you can't claim that he was one of those "costing us money".

In the end, it's the belief that "the ends justify the means" that has gotten this country so far downhill.

 
Old 01-30-2009, 12:57 PM
 
Location: North Georgia
76 posts, read 183,808 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:

fatmancomics-

Meanwhile you have the so-called-citizens of this country complaining about their jobs being taken away by illegal aliens when they're being given away to people in other countries anyway since you've all grown so spoiled that you expect to get paid $10/hr+ and full benefits for unskilled labor. Just look at what's going on with the car manufacturers. They're not selling any less cars but they keep taking a loss because their union workers are making over 30/hr but they refuse to take a pay cut in order for their companies to stay afloat. Don't they realize that they won't be making ANY money if the companies go under?

Funny how nobody complains about the Persians or Koreans who come here on tourist visas, get welfare, go to school, get student visas after their tourist visas expire and then get approved for small business loans faster than any citizen does. Then they find loopholes to continue to receive welfare while they're driving a benz and shopping at prada. But, hey, they keep up appearances by living in better neighborhoods so everything is fine, right?
First of all, people who are making XX amount of dollars an hour for a job they do for the most part cannot afford to take a pay cut because the cost of living is too damn high. Obviously its preferable to losing your job altogether, but I know, I for one would NOT be pleased to have to take a pay cut after working my way up the pay scale.

Second of all, as someone who's been through the US immigration system as you state to have been should know that unless you get married you can't change a tourist visa or visa waiver to anything even remotely permanent and even then it's very hard. You can't go to school, get welfare or work without special papers or a SS# which you cannot get with a tourist visa of any kind and like I said, you can't change a tourist visa unless you get married to a citizen while you're here.

I am very vocal about illegal immigration but I'm getting to be sort of middle of the road on the subject because its just so hard and prohibitive to come here the right way. My husband and I are in the process of getting his citizenship and difficult is not even the word. I do understand where people who come here illegally are coming from. It's very hard and very expensive to get citizenship here.

I think most people's main frustration with Mexicans in particular is they seem very able to side step certain laws and rules. I've never seen a UK immigrant like my hubby or an Asian immigrant run out and get a tax ID like the Mexicans do in order to side-step the work visa laws and in order to open a bank account, but I have seen countless Mexicans who have.

Last edited by Ailin; 01-30-2009 at 01:04 PM.. Reason: needed to add something.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 02:48 PM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 22,410,631 times
Reputation: 3877
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
In the end, it's the belief that "the ends justify the means" that has gotten this country so far downhill.
While I question much of your post, I do agree with this.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,837,090 times
Reputation: 3502
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
Spoken like a true decendant of people who felt they were being treated badly and moved to another country, purpousely killed the natives who were already there to get them out of the way of the "newfound" land they claimed then kidnapped natives of other countries that were being conquered in order to enslave them to do the hard labor.
As I stated earlier in this thread, my mother came here LEGALLY (she waited her turn in lines and filled out forms in the 1950s), and my paternal grandparents came here LEGALLY in 1901 and landed at Ellis Island. They didn't sneak across a border in the middle of the night or abuse a visitor's welcome and stay, and like most people in this country, they had absolutely nothing to do with slavery or mistreating anyone.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 08:36 PM
 
898 posts, read 1,295,385 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil0311 View Post
As I stated earlier in this thread, my mother came here LEGALLY (she waited her turn in lines and filled out forms in the 1950s), and my paternal grandparents came here LEGALLY in 1901 and landed at Ellis Island. They didn't sneak across a border in the middle of the night or abuse a visitor's welcome and stay, and like most people in this country, they had absolutely nothing to do with slavery or mistreating anyone.
Anyone who was here before the country was desegregated and didn't take part in the civil rights struggle had something to do with mistreating someone. Just because they didn't personally burn a cross or lynch a black person doesn't mean they didn't enjoy the privileges of their mistreatment.
Again, I'm not an illegal alien; I'm a resident on his way to becoming a citizen. I love this country because of the fact that it has an established government that truly gives it the potential to be the best country in the world but I'm not blind to the crimes that have been committed against, not just foreigners but its own citizens (natives, black people, asian americans, jews, hispanics and anyone else who isn't white and christian) throughout its history just to keep the status quo. Every time the status quo is threatened you have the people who benefit the most making the most noise about it.
Black people were "imported" to work the land as slaves and, when the people that enslaved them were finally forced to let them go they still had to live in fear of being killed for no other reason than having dark skin for over a hundred years.
Chinese people were imported to build the railroad for slave wages and they had to live in fear of being killed simply for doing the job that they were essentially enslaved to do by the (white) people whose jobs they "took".
Mexican-Americans had to work for slave wages as well and were persecuted in the very schools they were being taught for displaying their culture openly (you used to get paddled if you spoke spanish in class) yet, even now, let a Mexican-American call himself just American and you'll have so a-hole making sure he knows that he's not considered "American" because his last name happens to be Martinez.
I can go on for days with examples and I could continue to rant about how it's stupid to think that you can just meddle in the business of other countries (like Mexico) and not expect the most desperate people, the poor, of those countries to seek out a better place to live and to do so by any means necessary.
The best that Mexico has to offer is still in Mexico because why would you leave a country where you're prospering? It's the desperate who risk their lives and the lives of their children to make accross that border because they know that if they stay they're dead anyway. Granted, they come with a plethora of problems and I'm the first to admit that and I could list them just as well as any racist white person could but the fact still remains that they are here because they don't have much choice.
 
Old 01-30-2009, 08:42 PM
 
Location: North Georgia
76 posts, read 183,808 times
Reputation: 65
Quote:
Fatmancomics-

I could list them just as well as any racist white person
And here we are once again at the assumption that only white people can be racist.
 
Old 01-31-2009, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Marietta, GA
7,844 posts, read 14,837,090 times
Reputation: 3502
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
Anyone who was here before the country was desegregated and didn't take part in the civil rights struggle had something to do with mistreating someone. Just because they didn't personally burn a cross or lynch a black person doesn't mean they didn't enjoy the privileges of their mistreatment.
How do you know that my family didn't participate in the civil rights struggle? You make a lot of assumptions and don't seem to think through your comments before you make them.

I won't bore you with details that you don't want to hear, but my parents were as active as white folks from NYC could be in the 1960s. They didn't come south because they had two young children, but my parents were the stereotype NY liberals who actually put their actions ahead of their words and taught their children racial tolerance and the value of the individual, so you have no idea and your comments are insulting. Growing up, there was no black and white, only people, and that's why I take the positions I take now.

Too many people want to hide their actions behind a cloak of race and use it as an excuse. The actions an individual takes are his or her actions, and if you cross a border illegally and break the law, that's your decision and you are responsible for it, not me.
 
Old 02-01-2009, 02:01 AM
 
Location: Mableton, GA USA (NW Atlanta suburb, 4 miles OTP)
11,319 posts, read 22,410,631 times
Reputation: 3877
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
Anyone who was here before the country was desegregated and didn't take part in the civil rights struggle had something to do with mistreating someone. Just because they didn't personally burn a cross or lynch a black person doesn't mean they didn't enjoy the privileges of their mistreatment.
How, precisely, would a bunch of German immigrants in a small agricultural town in MN (to pick an example that applies directly to me) have enjoyed the privileges of anyone's mistreatment, except very very indirectly, say through the use of manufactured goods produced on the east coast?

The area (eastern SD and SW Minnesota) didn't even have permanent Native American settlements, much less slavery or cities built using the economic gain obtained by exploiting those two groups, goods were generally brought by wagon from the nearest large city, not rail, and those areas were almost entirely settled by farmers and craftsman who immigrated directly from Germany and its close neighbors (Austria, Switzerland, etc.). Such towns were quite self-contained and rather isolated.

Ever seen Little House on the Prairie, or read Giants in the Earth?

I hate such sweeping generalizations.

Just because someone has European ancestors doesn't mean there was any connection to the slave trade, sovreignity issues with Mexico, or Native American extermination, either here in the US *or* on the other side of the ocean in the old country, unless you can show me that my own Swiss ancestors were somehow involved in the slave trade back in the 1830's from their tiny mountain village in GraubŁnden Canton.
 
Old 02-01-2009, 02:10 AM
 
1,525 posts, read 3,366,454 times
Reputation: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawgfan View Post
lilmusket,

I can completely see what you are talking about. But written on a plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty you will find these words-
It seems to me that we got our economy from immigration. And at that point, there was no such thing as illegal immigration... just immigration. As Bill Murray said in the movie Stripes-

My how things have changed.

Those are indeed great ideals. But at what point to we determine we've hit carrying capacity and *have* to close the doors?

As the old saying goes, "You can't put 10 lbs. in a 5 lbs. bag".

Shouldn't world leaders be trying to figure out how to make all places and regions as livable as the U.S.?
 
Old 02-01-2009, 02:21 AM
 
1,525 posts, read 3,366,454 times
Reputation: 735
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatmancomics View Post
Spoken like a true decendant of people who felt they were being treated badly and moved to another country, purpousely killed the natives who were already there to get them out of the way of the "newfound" land they claimed then kidnapped natives of other countries that were being conquered in order to enslave them to do the hard labor.

This whole country and its way of life was built by breaking laws and the way of life of the citizenry was maintained by doing the same.
I'm a LEGAL immigrant who was lucky enough to have family in this country that sponsored my parents, my brother and I. We waited nearly 10 years for our papers to go through and, by the time they did, things in my country (El Salvador) were so bad that we might have even come here illegaly had they not gone through. My country was in a civil war at the time and children 12 and up were being "recruited" by both sides. The war lasted 11 years thanks to interference and aid from the US government to the corrupt government of El Salvador just so that they could keep up the appearance of a democratic El Salvador. God forbid that there be a socialist country so close to the good ol' USA so they trained the governemt troops and supplied them with money and weapons. Nevermind that they indiscriminately slaughtered teachers and whole families for simply living in areas where rebels where known to be.

The same kind of thing goes on all over the world all the time. They're doing it in Iraq and Israel, in China and any other country that you can think of where America decides that they need to stick their nose into because it allows us to have cheap underwear and gasoline.

Meanwhile you have the so-called-citizens of this country complaining about their jobs being taken away by illegal aliens when they're being given away to people in other countries anyway since you've all grown so spoiled that you expect to get paid $10/hr+ and full benefits for unskilled labor. Just look at what's going on with the car manufacturers. They're not selling any less cars but they keep taking a loss because their union workers are making over 30/hr but they refuse to take a pay cut in order for their companies to stay afloat. Don't they realize that they won't be making ANY money if the companies go under?

Funny how nobody complains about the Persians or Koreans who come here on tourist visas, get welfare, go to school, get student visas after their tourist visas expire and then get approved for small business loans faster than any citizen does. Then they find loopholes to continue to receive welfare while they're driving a benz and shopping at prada. But, hey, they keep up appearances by living in better neighborhoods so everything is fine, right?

That case with the officer that was posted just proves my point. Nobody cares as long as appearances are kept or as long as it's just one person doing it. The guy became a cop; show me where the malice that so many of you are apt to associate with immigrants (or should I say all hispanics?) was in his case? He definitely paid taxes so you can't claim that he was one of those "costing us money".

In the end, it's the belief that "the ends justify the means" that has gotten this country so far downhill.
Just out of curiousity, if you hate America so much, why do you stay?

However, I do agree with many of your points.

As I've said elsewhere, the leadership worldwide needs to get together and figure out how we can make the entire planet livable, so these sorts of issues are no longer present.

I suspect that even at today's bloated population figures there's still sufficient resources and technology to make the entire planet much better than it is.

Problem is, how to do it in a way that everyone (especially the powerful, LOL!) agree is "fair".

Hard to do considering we aren't too many years beyond the era where conquering other lands was considered par for the course.

Consider that 100 years ago the oceans were still barriers. We haven't had jetliners, for example, for very long.

It may take generations for old issues to fade. (Or just one big global crisis that bites everyone equally hard enough for everyone to say, "Hey we all sink or swim together".)
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