Vision For High-Speed Rail In America (Atlanta, Savannah: disposal, tax, living)

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

At what point does someone catch on that exporting billions and trillions per year is not wise. Is it not more cost effective spending the money, here, on electric rail based mass transit?

Your points are valid, but you base it also on the current false premise that we have no domestic energy reserves. I know we don't have unlimited domestic supply, but we still have massive domestic energy reserves that our politicians have deliberately put off limits to serve political ends. If Obama can prevent increased domestic production, he can force the scarcity he wants and drive up prices. Hell, if Obama could pass a huge energy and fuel tax tomorrow to drive up prices, he would.

Why wouldn't any sensible energy policy include reducing consumption in reasonable ways that are not driven by ideology, and at the same time increase supply in ways that we know we can....off shore oil, Alaskan oil, coal, and natural gas. We have enough natural gas and coal for centuries of consumption. Of course then also you have nuclear power for electricity which seems to get completely left out of any conversation, as if it doesn't exist. Many parts of the world (especially France, Russia, and other parts of Europe) rely heavily on nuclear power generation. Yes, there is a need to dispose of the waste, but that is a much more easily solved problem.

High speed rail is one thing we can do, and I'd sooner see us build that kind of lasting infrastructure instead of giving away stimulus in wasted social spending, but to say that it will solve our energy problems is a bit of a stretch. What we need are politicians who are willing to tell the lobbies and the wackos on the extremes to go pound sand, while looking into sensible short, medium, and long term solutions. Until we have such politicians who can be honest and deal with issues in the best interest of the country, instead of the own self interest, we'll just keep on dealing with small pieces of the problem.

Hell, let's spend billions of tax dollars on trains that most people will never ride, while we prohibit private companies from exploring and extracting billions of barrels of domestic oil that we know exists and which could reduce foreign dependence and help stabilize and drive down prices. AT&T recently committed to changing over their entire fleet of vehicles to natural gas. Why isn't our government providing tax incentives and outright subsidies to assist with that kind of paradigm shift or a shift to hydrogen fuel cells?

[thedudewiththeplan]

High speed rail would still be faster than cars. Take into account that the rail would be around 110 mph as opposed to 70 or 75, the time it takes to stop to get gas, use the restroom, ect... as well as traffic going through several metro areas, and the trains would come out on top. That and not having to drive and stay focused on the road for hours on end would be nice.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by thedudewiththeplan

High speed rail would still be faster than cars. Take into account that the rail would be around 110 mph as opposed to 70 or 75, the time it takes to stop to get gas, use the restroom, ect... as well as traffic going through several metro areas, and the trains would come out on top. That and not having to drive and stay focused on the road for hours on end would be nice.

OK...but what happens when you arrive at your destination? In most cities you still need to rent a car when you arrive. Most cities are not like NYC where you can get around better w/o a car.

I'll fly and rent the car, or for shorter trips just drive to begin with...probably faster, probably cheaper, and probably more convenient to most destinations.

[thedudewiththeplan]

I know several people who are afraid of flying, so they would feel much more comfortable with this type of system. As for driving, I am not a fan of having to drive 8 or 10 hours strait to arrive at a destination. Would much prefer to be able to sit back and relax on a high speed train.

[Noc]

Originally Posted by neil0311

OK...but what happens when you arrive at your destination? In most cities you still need to rent a car when you arrive. Most cities are not like NYC where you can get around better w/o a car.

I'll fly and rent the car, or for shorter trips just drive to begin with...probably faster, probably cheaper, and probably more convenient to most destinations.

When you arrive at your destination you take whatever means of transportation that is local to the city. If nothing sufficient is in place some business savvy person will start a new venture. Isn't this all about creating jobs on all fronts as well....

[btard]

Originally Posted by thedudewiththeplan

I know several people who are afraid of flying, so they would feel much more comfortable with this type of system.

So why subsidize someone's fear?

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by btard

So why subsidize someone's fear (by public support for rail) ?

Good point - wrong question.

To counter the objection of public funding of electric rail mass transit, would it be acceptable to grant rail mass transit ZERO tax liability?
In other words, no public funds, no tax liability, and the private companies have to make a profit on their own.
Of course, no politician would surrender power, and do such a sane thing. Untaxing industry may expose the underlying problem that has plagued America for 3 generations.

So we're trapped by a web of inertia, bureaucracy, administrative overhead, and taxes to do nothing effective to end our oil addiction.

Sigh.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Good point - wrong question.

To counter the objection of public funding of electric rail mass transit, would it be acceptable to grant rail mass transit ZERO tax liability?
In other words, no public funds, no tax liability, and the private companies have to make a profit on their own.
Of course, no politician would surrender power, and do such a sane thing. Untaxing industry may expose the underlying problem that has plagued America for 3 generations.

So we're trapped by a web of inertia, bureaucracy, administrative overhead, and taxes to do nothing effective to end our oil addiction.

Sigh.

There is a BIG...HUGE...MASSIVE difference between "mass transit" and what we're discussing. Mass transit is local to a city or metro area and provides commuters and city dwellers a means to transit the city. What is being discussed is a MASSIVE interstate system of railroads....using new technology, over rights of way that may not exist, that have to be maintained at a huge cost, and where ridership currently does not exist.

Hell, the Acela has been in the northeast for a while where it makes sense, and they've had all kinds of technical problems and issues. It was shut down a few years ago due to massive technical issues. How do you scale that to thousands of track miles?

[gaflsc]

Originally Posted by neil0311

There is a BIG...HUGE...MASSIVE difference between "mass transit" and what we're discussing. Mass transit is local to a city or metro area and provides commuters and city dwellers a means to transit the city. What is being discussed is a MASSIVE interstate system of railroads....using new technology, over rights of way that may not exist, that have to be maintained at a huge cost, and where ridership currently does not exist.

Hell, the Acela has been in the northeast for a while where it makes sense, and they've had all kinds of technical problems and issues. It was shut down a few years ago due to massive technical issues. How do you scale that to thousands of track miles?

Neil gets it. In our rush to spend untold billions of dollars to "catch" up to those "kewl" europeans, we lose sight of how this nation works: We have the freedom to move about as we please, but are responsible for how we get there.

Sorry, this whole train thing is a massive boondoggle, and more taxpayers should be showing outrage!

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

Neil gets it. In our rush to spend untold billions of dollars to "catch" up to those "kewl" europeans, we lose sight of how this nation works: We have the freedom to move about as we please, but are responsible for how we get there.

Sorry, this whole train thing is a massive boondoggle, and more taxpayers should be showing outrage!

Steel wheel on steel rail IS superior to rubber tire on pavement, according to the laws of Physics. Electrified rail is superior to diesel rail, in terms of energy efficiency.

I concur that "government administered" rail transportation funded by taxation will be a disaster, but that doesn't mean that rails are a losing proposition.

Mag-Lev technology does represent the highest efficiency - if ever they can get the costs down. But the fastest rail trains have come close to the fastest Mag-Lev trains, at this time.

The overall costs to build and maintain a robust rail network of mainline (heavy), high speed commuter, light rail, and streetcar systems, powered by electricity, are far lower than the costs to subsidize petroleum fueled automobiles, trucks, and even diesel trains. And are still lower than the costs to build Mag-Lev, at this time.

The limiting factor will be fuel costs.
Assuming that no replacement for "cheap and plentiful" petroleum is found, any transportation system dependent upon petroleum will become progressively more expensive and less desirable. That will hit especially hit hard on any system that can't use electricity - such as jet and piston engines used in airplanes.

More info and links

A transportation system that relies on a "non-renewable" resource is bound for collapse - the only question is whether we adapt in time, not whether we need to adapt.
--- Strickland