Vision For High-Speed Rail In America (Atlanta, Savannah: buy, gated, price)

[Brillemeister]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

Sorry, this whole train thing is a massive boondoggle, and more taxpayers should be showing outrage!

I would personally be outraged (though unsurprised) if this were left to flounder. It's decades overdue in my opinion.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Brillemeister

I would personally be outraged (though unsurprised) if this were left to flounder. It's decades overdue in my opinion.

Where is the outcry that we don't have interstate rail in this country? It's been around in the form of Amtrak for years, and Amtrak can't make a dime. They barely can make ends meet in the northeast corridor where you have pretty decent ridership and service. Who is clamoring in Atlanta for rail to Savannah or Jacksonville?

If we want to spend the money on mass transit in the Atlanta metro area, now that might get some bang for the buck, but in this country with the large distances between cities, airplanes are what we use and what makes sense.

[gaflsc]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Where is the outcry that we don't have interstate rail in this country? It's been around in the form of Amtrak for years, and Amtrak can't make a dime. They barely can make ends meet in the northeast corridor where you have pretty decent ridership and service. Who is clamoring in Atlanta for rail to Savannah or Jacksonville?

If we want to spend the money on mass transit in the Atlanta metro area, now that might get some bang for the buck, but in this country with the large distances between cities, airplanes are what we use and what makes sense.

Airplanes & automobiles. You got it!

[Noc]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

Airplanes & automobiles. You got it!

More dependency on foreign oil

[gaflsc]

Originally Posted by Noc

More dependency on foreign oil

Thanks to the greens & liberals who would rather see our nations revert back to an 18th centrury economy!

Drill domestic & drill now!

[Noc]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

Thanks to the greens & liberals who would rather see our nations revert back to an 18th centrury economy!

Drill domestic & drill now!

As a Conservative Democrat I agree!

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Your points are valid, but you base it also on the current false premise that we have no domestic energy reserves. I know we don't have unlimited domestic supply, but we still have massive domestic energy reserves that our politicians have deliberately put off limits to serve political ends.

In terms of recent consumption levels, the "massive domestic reserves" will be depleted rapidly - then nada.

Originally Posted by neil0311

Why wouldn't any sensible energy policy include reducing consumption in reasonable ways that are not driven by ideology, and at the same time increase supply in ways that we know we can....off shore oil, Alaskan oil, coal, and natural gas. We have enough natural gas and coal for centuries of consumption.

Please state your source for such a claim.
In rebuttal, see:
Coal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States Energy Information Administration gives world reserves as 998 billion short tons (equal to 905 gigatons), approximately half of it being hard coal. At the current production rate, this would last 164 years. At the current global total energy consumption of 15 terawatt, there is enough coal to provide the entire planet with all of its energy for 57 years.

Originally Posted by neil0311

Of course then also you have nuclear power for electricity which seems to get completely left out of any conversation, as if it doesn't exist. Many parts of the world (especially France, Russia, and other parts of Europe) rely heavily on nuclear power generation. Yes, there is a need to dispose of the waste, but that is a much more easily solved problem.

No, it's not an easily solved problem. Depending on the isotope, the half life toxicity can span eons.

Radioactive waste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Because some radioactive species have half-lives longer than one million years, even very low container leakage and radionuclide migration rates must be taken into account. Moreover, it may require more than one half-life until some nuclear materials lose enough radioactivity to no longer be lethal to living things. A 1983 review of the Swedish radioactive waste disposal program by the National Academy of Sciences found that country’s estimate of several hundred thousand years—perhaps up to one million years—being necessary for waste isolation “fully justified.”

If you are confident that this generation can build waste containment with the capacity for safe storage for up to one million years - and more - you had better produce some data to back up that claim.

Because if you cannot guarantee isolation, you are condemning the future to death by poisoning, to serve your immediate needs.

Originally Posted by neil0311

High speed rail is one thing we can do, and I'd sooner see us build that kind of lasting infrastructure instead of giving away stimulus in wasted social spending, but to say that it will solve our energy problems is a bit of a stretch.

It's not a stretch, but based on solid engineering data.
See:The Oil Drum | Multiple Birds – One Silver BB: A synergistic set of solutions to multiple issues focused on Electrified Railroads

Originally Posted by neil0311

What we need are politicians who are willing to tell the lobbies and the wackos on the extremes to go pound sand, while looking into sensible short, medium, and long term solutions.

Hell, let's spend billions of tax dollars on trains that most people will never ride, while we prohibit private companies from exploring and extracting billions of barrels of domestic oil that we know exists and which could reduce foreign dependence and help stabilize and drive down prices. AT&T recently committed to changing over their entire fleet of vehicles to natural gas. Why isn't our government providing tax incentives and outright subsidies to assist with that kind of paradigm shift or a shift to hydrogen fuel cells?

Oil reserves in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Proven oil reserves in the United States are 21 billion barrels (3.3×10^9 m3), excluding the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The U.S. Department of the Interior estimates the total volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable prospective resources in all areas of the United States, including the Federal Outer Continental Shelf, the 1002 area of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska, and the Bakken Formation, total 134 billion barrels (21.3×10^9 m3) of crude oil. This excludes oil shale reserves, as there is no significant commercial production of oil from oil shale in the United States.

1 billion barrels of oil = one month U.S. consumption (2007)
TOTAL OIL RESERVES = 134 months (11 years)

Hydrogen is not a "fuel source" but an energy carrier. At this time, it still takes MORE energy to crack water for H2. Use the electricity to power electric rail instead of supporting the automobile paradigm.

Restating the main points -
[] Fossil Fuels are finite, unsustainable, and polluting sources of fuel to power our technological civilization. They will be soon exhausted.
[] Electricity derived from sustainable sources will be the major energy source for the remainder of the 21st century.
[] Most if not all transportation systems will need to convert to electricity, to remain economical.
[] Long haul cargo and passenger service, commuter, local cargo and passenger service will need to shift to electric rail.

[gaflsc]

*sigh*

Wikipedia is NEVER a credible source for anything!

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

Thanks to the greens & liberals who would rather see our nations revert back to an 18th centrury economy!
Drill domestic & drill now!

Actually, electric powered rail is 19th century tech.

And, no, we can't drill our way out of the problem.
Based on the estimated U.S. oil reserves, we'd exhaust our domestic sources in 11 years.

Oil reserves in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Proven oil reserves in the United States are 21 billion barrels (3.3×10^9 m3), excluding the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The U.S. Department of the Interior estimates the total volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable prospective resources in all areas of the United States, including the Federal Outer Continental Shelf, the 1002 area of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, the National Petroleum Reserve–Alaska, and the Bakken Formation, total 134 billion barrels (21.3×10^9 m3) of crude oil. This excludes oil shale reserves, as there is no significant commercial production of oil from oil shale in the United States.

1 billion barrels of oil = one month U.S. consumption (2007)
TOTAL OIL RESERVES = 134 months (11 years)

Don't you think it is irresponsible to consume a natural resource in less than 200 years, that took 65 million years to produce?
Do you think that your grandchildren will be grateful?

Don't misunderstand me - I am an advocate for technological progress. Our future prosperity depends on making more with less for more people to enjoy.
But we obviously cannot consume at current rates, without regard for the depletion of finite resources, and the turmoil that will arise when those scarce resources trigger wars.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by gaflsc

*sigh*

Wikipedia is NEVER a credible source for anything!

Never say never...
Just show a rebutting fact / datum, and we will be persuaded otherwise.