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What in the world does a vacation choice have to do with this thread? We're talking about 2 young children who destroy the house when they are left alone. Vacations are completely irrelevant.
SOME preschoolers can be left alone downstairs while their parents sleep. THESE 2 obviously can not. We're not talking about your kids. We're talking about the kids in the OP, and they have proven they can't be left alone.
Being tired matters but it is superseded when a preschooler and a toddler are getting into mischief that could potentially harm themselves and others in the house. This mom can sleep when she gets someone else to watch the kids, or effectively teaches them the necessary boundaries.
ETA, and yes, you are negligent if your kid gets up at 3 am and you don't, especially if they get into trouble like these 2. My husband and I got up many times at the wee hours to put the kids back to bed. It's what parents do. I mean really, what would you say if your kid got up at 3 am and burned down the house? Tell the police "it was 3 am I'm entitled to my sleep"?
I disagree with just about all of this. For one, and this is more to clarify vs disagree, the vacation comment was an illustration of how a parent should feel comfortable sticking up for their needs as an individual even if it requires the children to make allowances for them. vs always making everything about the children--and how we parents often-times must do this ourselves because others seem to only think of the children and not care about us as parents and individuals. What does that have to do with this? It's about how the one person said "it doesn't matter if you're tired" and how I, on the other hand, think it does matter how she feels in terms of being tired.
My situation was totally different, but it was the same general idea--the parents feelings and needs matter. They are not superseded by the kids' needs. Yet, too often, other people make it clear they don't care how the parent feels, and I've found you have to stick up for your ownself and look out for your ownself in those situations, because no one else will. As long as you're not totally selfish and negligent in how you do it, I think it's totally the thing to do.
I also disagree about the 3 a.m. occasion. A child should be instructed not to get up that early and then be expected to do as they were told, period. Getting up with them only encourages them to do more of it, especially if there is no penalty handed out. To me, that is the child's fault 100% if something happens, because they disobeyed their parents. Period. I'm not sure how the law would interpret that, but it's what I think is fundamentally right. To me, I'm not obligated to get up at 3 a.m. if my kids are defying me and getting up at that time wanting to play. If I've told them "stay in bed until the sun comes up" and they do otherwise, that's THEIR fault 100%.
So--is the mother, to me, obligated to get up with the kids at 3 a.m.? Yes, but only 2 times--once to say "stay in your room or else" to set the expectation and "establish" they won't get away with it, and a second time (assuming they get up again after all on another occasion) to deliver very powerful punishment for going against her. Almost for sure, that will put a quick end to it.
I can say what I would do it it were me--during bedtime, I'd strongly word to them my expectation that they not get up and wander around etc until I was up, MY SCHEDULE mind you, that they were to only get up with my specific permission. I'd probably do what the one person said--set up pots & pans to know, and if they in fact were up at 3 a.m. or the like, I'd get up, sure, but they would be greeted with a very firm "what did I tell you" along with a paddle in my hand, and, once I was done, they'd hear "now who wants to get out of bed again!!! Just let me catch you again and I'll do it to you again" reverberating off the walls. I'd then go right back to bed. I can almost promise you, the problem would be over just like that.
I did such a thing with respect to our kids and candy. My wife liked to keep a dish of candy on her computer table, but a few times the kids got into it. She said "well I guess I will have to start putting it where they can't reach it." Phooey on that, I said. I instructed them "do not ever touch that candy again without my permission." One time I walked into the room and caught my son doing it, who then tried to get out of any punishment by putting it back in the dish and running to his room. He knew he had done wrong. What I said earlier I'd do if they got up at 3 a.m., that's what I did, and he never touched the candy again without permission, he'd ASK and typically when he did we'd let him have some. Our daughter did it once--in her case, I did nothing at the time, but later that day, I made a pie and got her all excited--only to instead make her sit at the table and watch while I alone enjoyed some. I told her "you already had your sweets, that candy earlier that you STOLE. Next time it will be this AND a spanking BOTH." It never happened again.
I think we expect too much of parents and, conversely, too little of children. I recall growing up in a house where there were guns in my parents' closet loaded and unlocked. The only "security" was they were in the closet vs in the wide-open living area. That's it. I was told to stay out of their closet and it was EXPECTED of me. I remember enough to know that had I gone in there and used the guns and hurt someone, no one would've scolded my parents for not putting the guns up knowing there were children in the house, I would've been scolded because I didn't obey my parents' orders.
I remember Christmas Day and being anxious for my parents to wake up so I could see my gifts, but they established that I was to WAIT until they were up and gave me the green light, or else the gifts would go back. I once even got spanked on Christmas Day for doing something along those lines I was told to not do, and I never did it again.
So--it can be done. You've just got to be willing to be the "bad cop" as it were. That's all.
Shy guy, when a child wakes up at 3am there is likely something wrong like a nightmare or feeling sick. Meeting them with a paddle doesn't solve the problem and is just plain mean.
This mom IS putting her own needs first as you advocate for. How's that workin?
Eta whether you think so or not you will be held responsible if your children burn down your house at 3am. You are the adult.
Last edited by Kibbiekat; 10-05-2014 at 10:06 AM..
I also disagree about the 3 a.m. occasion. A child should be instructed not to get up that early and then be expected to do as they were told, period. Getting up with them only encourages them to do more of it, especially if there is no penalty handed out. To me, that is the child's fault 100% if something happens, because they disobeyed their parents. Period. I'm not sure how the law would interpret that, but it's what I think is fundamentally right. To me, I'm not obligated to get up at 3 a.m. if my kids are defying me and getting up at that time wanting to play. If I've told them "stay in bed until the sun comes up" and they do otherwise, that's THEIR fault 100%.
Okay, so.... it might be 100% THEIR fault what happens whether you are around or not, got that. But lets be clear, to the cops and CPS, that it is still 100% YOUR responsibility whatever happens to your child, AND what your child does, AND especially inside your house. Just because it wouldn't be your fault if your kid burns your house down at 3am, doesn't mean it wasn't your responsibility to not let it happen.
That is very closed minded and short sighted of you, and could land you in jail, but whatever...
If it's "close minded" to say that, except in extreme situations, parents should have absolute authority to parent how they think is right and without outside interference, then fine, I'm "close minded," and wear the label with absolute pride.
Protecting kids from awful, as in truly AWFUL parents, is one thing. Even I agree with doing that. Anymore, though, it's going too far, especially when combined with the shift in the mentality of parenting to where we seem to no longer understand that (a) parents can only do so much and should be expected to only do so much (b) parenting isn't supposed to be 24/7 every second of your life put everything else away and only parent and nothing else (c) kids sometimes disobey their parents with full awareness and (d) when they do, and problems ensue, they are responsible for what happens, not the parents for failing to be on 24/7 guard and, oh jeepers, actually SLEEPING or going to the bathroom etc.
It reminds me of when my son was bad, around age 3 or so, about taking his shoes off in the car when I told him very clearly to leave them on. He kept removing them anyway. To my mind, it was not my job to keep telling him and telling him and telling him and telling him and checking and checking again, and again, and again--it was my job to provide him suitable shoes, instruct him on how to put them on, do a double-check once or twice to make sure he still had them on--and from that point my job was done. I believed it then, and I still believe it now.
Anyway, he kept taking them off, so one day when I noticed I deliberately said nothing--while he proceeded to exit the car and step onto the concrete, barefoot. I let him do that without intervening. Oh yes, it was about 95'F outside and the sun was out. You can imagine his reaction, and you can especially imagine his reaction when I took the remote control and locked the car so he couldn't get his shoes and was FORCED to stand on the hot concrete, during which time I berated him for not doing as I told him. After about 30 seconds of this, I then unlocked the door and let him get his shoes, even then it was proceeded with my emphatic question of "are you EVER going to take your shoes off without MY PERMISSION ever again, EVER?" followed by "I better not EVER have to remind you, even ONE TIME. Do you understand?"
I never had to remind him again, ever.
It is a parent's job to instruct their children on what to do, give them the means to do it, and yes to a REASONABLE extent remind them and double check. It is NOT their job to assume 24/7 guard duty and make sure even after their children have been clearly instructed and have a full understanding and ability to do what's been asked of them. It is the child's job, period. More should be expected of children that way, and likewise less of parents. To the extent that we have this backwards and unwelcome intruders like CPS and the police involve themselves, they are usurping parental authority and butting in where they don't belong, in my opinion. (And yes, they DO belong in severe cases like molesting, regular beatings, denial of food/medical care etc.)
If it's "close minded" to say that, except in extreme situations, parents should have absolute authority to parent how they think is right and without outside interference, then fine, I'm "close minded," and wear the label with absolute pride.
Protecting kids from awful, as in truly AWFUL parents, is one thing. Even I agree with doing that. Anymore, though, it's going too far, especially when combined with the shift in the mentality of parenting to where we seem to no longer understand that (a) parents can only do so much and should be expected to only do so much (b) parenting isn't supposed to be 24/7 every second of your life put everything else away and only parent and nothing else (c) kids sometimes disobey their parents with full awareness and (d) when they do, and problems ensue, they are responsible for what happens, not the parents for failing to be on 24/7 guard and, oh jeepers, actually SLEEPING or going to the bathroom etc.
It reminds me of when my son was bad, around age 3 or so, about taking his shoes off in the car when I told him very clearly to leave them on. He kept removing them anyway. To my mind, it was not my job to keep telling him and telling him and telling him and telling him and checking and checking again, and again, and again--it was my job to provide him suitable shoes, instruct him on how to put them on, do a double-check once or twice to make sure he still had them on--and from that point my job was done. I believed it then, and I still believe it now.
Anyway, he kept taking them off, so one day when I noticed I deliberately said nothing--while he proceeded to exit the car and step onto the concrete, barefoot. I let him do that without intervening. Oh yes, it was about 95'F outside and the sun was out. You can imagine his reaction, and you can especially imagine his reaction when I took the remote control and locked the car so he couldn't get his shoes and was FORCED to stand on the hot concrete, during which time I berated him for not doing as I told him. After about 30 seconds of this, I then unlocked the door and let him get his shoes, even then it was proceeded with my emphatic question of "are you EVER going to take your shoes off without MY PERMISSION ever again, EVER?" followed by "I better not EVER have to remind you, even ONE TIME. Do you understand?"
I never had to remind him again, ever.
It is a parent's job to instruct their children on what to do, give them the means to do it, and yes to a REASONABLE extent remind them and double check. It is NOT their job to assume 24/7 guard duty and make sure even after their children have been clearly instructed and have a full understanding and ability to do what's been asked of them. It is the child's job, period. More should be expected of children that way, and likewise less of parents. To the extent that we have this backwards and unwelcome intruders like CPS and the police involve themselves, they are usurping parental authority and butting in where they don't belong, in my opinion. (And yes, they DO belong in severe cases like molesting, regular beatings, denial of food/medical care etc.)
The problem with your posts here is that you are promoting a certain parenting philosophy instead of providing advice specific to the OP's situation.
You said the mother in the OP should be able to sleep for as long and as late as she wants. That might work if her kids had the discipline and guidance to know how to behave when she's asleep, and ideally, if they were a little older. But they haven't. So, for now, she has to get up. She has to get up and teach them how to behave. When she figures out how to do that, then she can sleep in a little later.
You haven't offered a single piece of advice that would be helpful to the OP or this mother. All you have done is provide examples of how you instill fear in your own children. You seem very proud, but you really should be ashamed. Back on topic... We're not talking about your fearful, abused kids. We're talking about completely different kids who are a danger to themselves and others when they are left alone.
I thought I had given advice, if I haven't then this is it.
Yes, for a BIT she probably will have to get up with them at 3 am. However, the idea shouldn't be "they may get into something so I havetto be awake to prevent that," because then she'd effectively be letting them dictate the schedule. No. It needs to be established that as the parent SHE dictates the schedule. She has to establish that.
Thus, I'd say she should get up but in doing so it should be in an enforcement capacity, to remind them that she meant it when she said stay in bed .Order them back into bed, forcefully if need be, with a stern warning that any further acts will be met with stern ddisciplie. Then, if they do get up again anyway, which I fully expect they will, follow up on your promise of firm discipline and they will see you mean business. It will probably take a few times, but eventually they'll get it.
And yes, properly trained, they can be trusted to get up, say, around 8 themselves if they can play appropriately--coloring, stacking blocks, trains etc. Then they'd have a sense of their own autonomy and age appropriate self regulating independence,*which I think would be just fantastic. It's better to them than them having no sense of control at all period.
And yes, in terms of sleeping late, I wouldn't mean it to the extreme of, say, sleeping until noon everyday. She's a parent, not a college student living in a dorm, after all. She does need to spend time with her children, sure, I agree totally. For all my firm methods back them (anymore lately I'm far easier going anymore), I still spent much time with them, doing things such as chasing them in the yard spraying them with the garden hose on hot days, having them watch me in the kitchen while I cooked and explaining what I was doing vs shooing them out so it was easier on me, etc. I agree fully about the need for her to find time for them in relationship. In fact, until she does, I calculate that everything else will be in vain.
Sounds to me like they need to have more outside time, more vigorous activity during the daytime, run off some of that energy....that will help them sleep at night. I would make sure they don't have a lot of sugar, even fruit juice has natural sugars...And, I'd give them nice warm baths before bedtime.
I would also baby proof this house, and then put locks on all doors and cabinets, or even a door lock to kitchen....
I also think Mom should work a more regular schedule....if she is working 16 hr days....You are working 16-24 hour days....This is a bad situation.
As the nanny, your room should be close to the children's, not a floor above....I also think that the mother is taking advantage of you, knowing on your days off you are having to watch them. I think for your own sanity, and because if you aren't there, Mom will have to do it.....You should leave on your days off. Better yet...I would find a different position if it were me.
None of this will change until Mom gets a more reasonable schedule.....You cannot work 16 hr days all work week and think you are being a decent parent.
Where is Dad?? I wish you good luck.
Last edited by JanND; 10-13-2014 at 08:21 PM..
Reason: Edit to add
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