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Old 08-25-2018, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Orlando
1,946 posts, read 2,597,181 times
Reputation: 7329

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
KA has a very extensive posting history. She is an easily recognized and remembered poster. I don't think Jen is stalking, just remembering previous posts.
This is true. Remembering what KA has posted in the past isn't creepy, it isn't obsessive, it isn't stalking. I remember what she said in lots of her posts, which is probably why I didn't want to contribute to this thread.

 
Old 08-25-2018, 10:47 AM
 
6,432 posts, read 3,029,994 times
Reputation: 5818
Quote:
Originally Posted by WellShoneMoon View Post
This is true. Remembering what KA has posted in the past isn't creepy, it isn't obsessive, it isn't stalking. I remember what she said in lots of her posts, which is probably why I didn't want to contribute to this thread.
But this isn't what happened. What happened is that she tracked down what she remembered and reposted it. Given that was two years or more ago, that must have taken quite a bit of time. Sorry, but that IS obsessive and creepy in my book. YMMV

Then she mischaracterized what KA posted.

Like I said before, expecting your adult child not to be yelling at you through a closed door while you are ill in bed especially over things that aren't their business is not a "high" boundary.

In any case, its quite ironic to be tracking down others posting history when yours is only accessible to friends.
 
Old 08-25-2018, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,181 posts, read 35,697,872 times
Reputation: 62415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassybluesy View Post
I, for one, am not implying that you're racist. And I'm not saying that I'M of the belief in the "one drop" rule. But there are a lot of people out there who will look at your daughter, and that's the first thing they will see...a black woman. And there are people who will make unjustified assumptions based on your daughter being a black woman...cause that's what they see, and THEY ARE RACISTS. I'm just saying that she walks a different path than you. Doesn't mean you haven't walked difficult paths yourself. All of us have.


But I say this gently (I hope); when your daughter tells you black lives matter, and then you come back with "all lives matter", it discounts her experience. And I suspect that it sounds like it negates what she has experienced. Can you acknowledge that black people have historically had a bad time of it in the USA? She faces prejudices that you don't.
Oh I totally agree with your post! And absolutely - I definitely believe in white privilege and systemic racism - and my daughter should know this because I've always been vocal about those beliefs.

I don't expect you to read every sentence of this thread (let alone go back and reread every post I've ever made), but to reiterate, I only stated "All lives matter" BEFORE it became a catch phrase for negating the pain of the African American community regarding racism. I didn't use that phrase often and completely dropped it after it was sort of overtaken for lack of a better word. Meanwhile, I was actively speaking out about cases like Freddie Gray and Trayvon Martin, etc. (in defense of those killed, to be clear).

I've always been very clear that I feel that African Americans have historically had a hard time in the USA.

And I agree, she does face some prejudices that I don't - but I've also faced prejudices myself. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with the concept or in denial of it. My gosh, my entire family is multiracial and these people that I love have all experienced prejudices off and on over the years (and so have I to some extent).
 
Old 08-25-2018, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,181 posts, read 35,697,872 times
Reputation: 62415
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetana3 View Post
KA, we can only speculate based on what you have extensively written about your mother. It sounds like she is perhaps more multidimensional than your words have expressed.

But regardless of your mother's wishes, needs, or anything else, the mother of the kids cannot relate to you, her mother, and is likely never to have a sudden desire to see or be with her grandmother. I cannot remember whether your daughter even came to the funeral of her grandfather?

My husband said his family was full of estrangements and the reasons were often unknown to anyone else. His father and a brother had some feud and eventually even fought over who could be buried next to their mother. The feud lasted until death.

The whole thing is sad,very sad. Your grandkids are just caught in the middle of the adult crisis. You can only hope that, when they are grown, there is some spark that brings one or more closer to other family members.
Thanks for your thought filled posts, first off - I really do appreciate your fair approach to this.

My mom, like most basically good people who struggle with mental health issues, IS multidimensional (aren't we all) and I've written a lot over the years about our relationship - the good and the bad.

My daughter did come to her grandfather's funeral. In fact, one of the reasons she gave for moving to this area was to spend time with her grandparents in their elder years, and to allow her kids to know and love them. When she began cutting off family members, she started with me but quickly included my parents, who were TOTALLY flummoxed by this change (which coincided with her changing self identity and changing political views), because like me they had always been tolerant (and taught tolerance) of the views of others. During the last year of his life, my father reached out repeatedly to my daughter - calling, emailing, etc. - to no avail, and then when he ended up in the hospital dying, she came running up there with all her kids and camped out in his hospital room (yes, with four kids) for days, and told me over and over tearfully, "I wish I hadn't cut him off like I did! Why didn't I spend more time with him?" I don't know - but it's too late now. I thought that but I didn't say it. What I DID say was "Well, he knew you loved him and he knows you're here now - just focus on that." And in fact, my daughter was very involved in planning his funeral and attended the funeral as well as the big "wake" afterwards.

When she showed up at the hospital when my dad was dying, the first thing she said to me was "I am willing to put our differences aside while my grandfather is sick" and I clearly recall thinking, "OK - I don't even know what those differences are but that's great." She was loving, and kind, and supportive for that entire week. Then the SECOND the day of the funeral was over, she shut back down with me - but my mother was still living in her home, still needed emotional support more than ever.

So I was shocked when my daughter did the exact same thing to my mother that she had done to her supposedly beloved grandfather - AFTER she got everything she wanted out of my parents' house. The last time she saw my mom was well over a year ago, when she and her husband came with a trailer and got a trailer full of furniture and doodads that my mom was giving her, and the last thing she said to my mother, who was moving to assisted living after having lost her husband, was "I love you, Grandmother! I promise to come see you ONCE A WEEK!" Now, I thought that was a bit of a tall self imposed order, but I did hope she'd visit her grandmother once a month or so since she lives less than an hour away. That was 18 months ago and she hasn't called, sent a card, or come to see her - in other words, NO contact - since she got that trailer full of stuff from her.

I think I have to just face the fact that she's gone from my life, and like you said, hope that her kids will come around one day. It's just so heartbreaking to me, especially considering the kids, and my mother's terrible health (she's now under hospice care).
 
Old 08-25-2018, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,181 posts, read 35,697,872 times
Reputation: 62415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riley09swb View Post
When something is always about one person and how they feel, it's no wonder that the OP's daughter isn't calling back. She's fed up and tired of the behavior. You can only push so much and then there comes the day where the light bulb comes on and you walk away.

I've done that with my own mother. I'm tired of the "poor me mentality". It's never her fault and it's always about her and how she feels. No more. The straw that broke was when she sent my sister and I a long letter 3 years ago. It went into detail every thing we had ever done wrong to her. Her closing line was, let's handle this like adults". We did. My sister hasn't spoken to her in 3 years and I tried. I gave it one last shot and nothing changed. I do allow my kids to talk to her but only on speaker. I have nothing left to say as it's always the same thing over and over and always on her terms.

The OP's daughter is done and because she's done that includes the kids.
LOL sorry but I do need to respond to this.

I am NOT and have never played the victim role. That is not my mentality. I am not a drama queen - far from it. And I don't hold a grudge. I've never sent any sort of long crazy letter to anyone in my family - that is totally not my style.

I do agree that my daughter is "done." I am too, for that matter, at least when it comes to rude, out of control behaviors, crazy accusations, etc. I've been in an emotionally abusive (and physically abusive) marriage before, and I'm not going to walk on eggshells or tolerate emotionally manipulative behavior anymore, from anyone anytime anywhere. I haven't done that in over thirty years and I'm not allowing it back into my life again.

So I guess in that sense, it makes things easier, but I do really really really miss those grandkids. I miss my daughter too - the daughter I used to know, the one who used to come over all the time, invite me to her house, have spend the night parties here, or let me come get a youngun or two to spend the night over here, or invite me to her house for a weekend when both our husbands were working, the daughter I used to swap recipes with, do art projects with, etc. That was the daughter I had a few years ago - this militant, activist daughter who now rejects white people in general and who is flat out cruel and dismissive to her grandparents and sister, among other people, is not the daughter I used to know and I didn't raise her to act this way. I didn't model this behavior for her either, but I think I know who did.
 
Old 08-25-2018, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,181 posts, read 35,697,872 times
Reputation: 62415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riley09swb View Post
When something is always about one person and how they feel, it's no wonder that the OP's daughter isn't calling back. She's fed up and tired of the behavior. You can only push so much and then there comes the day where the light bulb comes on and you walk away.

I've done that with my own mother. I'm tired of the "poor me mentality". It's never her fault and it's always about her and how she feels. No more. The straw that broke was when she sent my sister and I a long letter 3 years ago. It went into detail every thing we had ever done wrong to her. Her closing line was, let's handle this like adults". We did. My sister hasn't spoken to her in 3 years and I tried. I gave it one last shot and nothing changed. I do allow my kids to talk to her but only on speaker. I have nothing left to say as it's always the same thing over and over and always on her terms.

The OP's daughter is done and because she's done that includes the kids.
You bring up some interesting dynamics though and I understand your frustration with your mom because my mom used to do a lot of the same thing - in fact, she's still doing it though with her dementia she's not as savvy as she used to be.

My mom was the one who would write these long, haranguing letters to people, with long lists of wrong doings, scriptures, etc. My mom was and still is bipolar so you can just imagine the types of letters we'd all get - my brothers, my dad and me especially (she didn't ever send any to the grandkids, thank goodness). Come to find out, she also sent these sorts of letters and made the same sorts of inflammatory phone calls over the decades to her sisters as well. It was very tiring and over the years I've had people, including my own husband, say to me in sincerity, "I don't know how or why you have put up with all this from your mom."

I'll tell you why I put up with it - because before I label a person "toxic" I look at their basic character and their basic motivations. It's been my experience that very few people are actually evil and I do think that those who are, are toxic and have no place in our lives. I get as far away from truly evil people as I can possibly get. But most people aren't evil - many people are just stuck in a rut of dysfunction that they can't even see or are unable to move past. And then throw in basic personalities and personality differences, and those further complicate our read on people.

So over the course of my life, including in my relationships with my mentally ill brother and mother (thank God for a mentally strong father and other brother!), I've erred on the side of generosity when it comes to what I will "allow" or tolerate or whatever. Because to me it boils down to what their motive is, and most of the time, when a person isn't evil, their motives aren't evil either. Short sighted, unknown or unowned, maybe. But evil? Not usually.

To me, toxic people are evil people. People who are difficult to get along with - well, maybe I have some fault in those relationship dynamics. Or maybe there's a mental health issue at play. Or maybe it's just a personality issue. Especially regarding mental health issues, I have a lot of compassion for people struggling with such issues.

But like my seriously mentally ill brother has said repeatedly "Just because someone is mentally ill doesn't give them the excuse to be a jerk." And that's the dang truth.

I think what bothers me THE MOST about my daughter's rejection and labeling of me (and many other folks in her life) as "toxic" is that this is so NOT the value I raised her with, and I've had this turned on me when I've been the one who supposedly has had the excuse to reject my own mother as toxic! After all I've put up with from my own mother and brother, after all the time and effort I put into teaching my kids about healthy boundaries but compassion at the same time, after all the forgiving I've done and modeled over the years - wow.

Because I know I am not an evil person. I am not a toxic person. I am not a mean person and I'm not even a dysfunctional person. I'm far from perfect, but those are not my faults. I can name some of my faults if you like, so I don't sound holier than thou - for starters, I'm bossy. I'm a first born and a natural leader, and that means I can be really bossy sometimes without even noticing it. I'm also very pragmatic vs emotional - so I can come across as insensitive, hell, maybe I AM insensitive. But I am not mean or cruel - I just don't always catch the more subtle nuances or hints. I am not subtle myself - I'm an open book. I'd make a terrible, terrible spy or undercover agent or poker player, because if I think it, my face says it all. I'm a hard worker to the point of occasionally letting things slide - I get very into a project or work idea or whatever and can literally forget to eat or drink anything, so I have always been prone to working long hours, including when my kids were little. I am not proud of this, but I am proud of the results - this work ethic meant that I was able to feed and clothe and house my kids comfortably even though I only have a couple of years of college (no degree) under my belt.

Anyway, I say all that to make a point - that I understand the drain that a drama queen or victim mentality mother can be, because I have had one of those in my life for 56 years.

I don't EVER call any of my kids to "talk about how I feel." I'm just not wired together that way. Heck, I might should have done it more often but that would have meant that I'd have to mull over all I was going through and I have been sick to death of all the OUTSIDE drama in my life over the past few years. I have had an unusually difficult three or four years and unfortunately my daughter moved here just as it all ramped up - first I had to have surgery on my ankle, which was a pretty big deal actually (8 months of rehab), then my father in law and mother in law both got critically ill, then they both died, then we had extended family drama over their estate and had to actually file injunctions against several of my husband's extended family members to keep them from stealing money, then my dad got a terminal illness and was in and out of the hospital, then he died, oh and meanwhile my mom developed anorexia (which was tied to her mental illness), and then fell and broke her hip while my dad was super sick and I had to take care of both of them simultaneously, and my brother had to be involuntarily committed to a mental health program (and lost his wife, job, house, everything) and my elderly, sick parents moved FOUR TIMES, then we moved, then I had to step in and close out my dad's estate in two states including a business, selling property in two states, cleaning out barns, houses, etc., and my husband's son's girlfriend killed two people in a wreck and ended up going to prison, and I'm CERTAIN I've left something out - OH, I did - my "normal" brother who had been my mainstay through much of this got pancreatic cancer and nearly died. OH. MY. GOSH. Ok, listen, that's a lot to assimilate and work through over a period of less than four years. Oh, I forgot to add that my husband got critically ill during this time as well (he pulled through and is better but still isn't in top form).

So I haven't been at my best - but a year or so ago I decided to slow down and regroup and get some counseling. It made a huge difference. It helped me prioritize my life and refocus on all the good that is there (and there's a lot of good) instead of being devastated by all the loss (and there's been a lot of loss). For the most part, I've been very successful at prioritizing, but I freely admit that my daughter's rejection continues to be very painful to me, in part because of the loss of the grandkids, but also because I simply do not understand her level of animosity.

Honestly, talk about kicking someone when they're down. I'm rarely down, but I've had a rough few years. I really could have stood a bit of kindness rather than a whole slew of bizarre and actually untrue accusations, coupled with her attempt (which thankfully didn't work) to actually turn my brothers and her other siblings against me, which would have just added to my losses.

You know what really struck me as the pattern of my life? When the doctor came into my dad's hospital room and said to me, "OK, what is your decision about life support?" and yes, it all boiled down to me since I was my dad's medical POA. My adult kids and my brothers were there, along with my best friend, who also was close to my dad. I said, "We've decided to take him off life support," and the doctor said, "I agree with that decision," and like that, they just turned off all the machines. And my best friend starts WAILING - I mean crying at the top of her lungs, and she comes running over to me fumbling and grabbing at my jacket, and I found myself comforting HER. Hey. IT'S MY DAD. My brothers were stoic, and so were my kids, because we'd already discussed this and reached this conclusion as a family, but still - honestly, why am I comforting someone else at this point?

That's the story of my life and frankly, it would be nice to be the weaker person every once in awhile, I guess, but I wouldn't know because when the chips are down, everyone looks over at me for some weird reason and says, "Oh no, what do we do now?"

I don't always have the answers, as I'm sure you know, but heck I'll have SOME sort of answer or idea or plan if you ask!
 
Old 08-25-2018, 02:34 PM
 
Location: here
24,839 posts, read 29,915,227 times
Reputation: 32382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondy View Post
But this isn't what happened. What happened is that she tracked down what she remembered and reposted it. Given that was two years or more ago, that must have taken quite a bit of time. Sorry, but that IS obsessive and creepy in my book. YMMV

Then she mischaracterized what KA posted.

Like I said before, expecting your adult child not to be yelling at you through a closed door while you are ill in bed especially over things that aren't their business is not a "high" boundary.

In any case, its quite ironic to be tracking down others posting history when yours is only accessible to friends.
Meh. Happens often in the forum. Any poster is free to set up their privacy as they wish. Some like to be a little more private. Some, well... definitely don't. Besides, all posts are searchable. You don't have to be able to get to someone's profile to do it.
 
Old 08-25-2018, 02:42 PM
 
6,432 posts, read 3,029,994 times
Reputation: 5818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
Meh. Happens often in the forum. Any poster is free to set up their privacy as they wish. Some like to be a little more private. Some, well... definitely don't. Besides, all posts are searchable. You don't have to be able to get to someone's profile to do it.
Doesn't negate the fact that it is obsessive to be tracking down someone's posts from two years ago to criticize them. This isn't a one time thing either. Its a habit for the poster in question. Bizarre obsession imo.
 
Old 08-25-2018, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
44,181 posts, read 35,697,872 times
Reputation: 62415
To balance this all out, but to also show the sheer level of warp speed our lives hit over the past for years, here are the GOOD things that happened in the midst of all the above, negative drama:

1. We stumbled across a great deal on a house - one that needed extensive renovating. The timing was terrible but the house was great, and we jumped on it. This was four years ago, before everything hit the fan, but things were starting to get crunk.

2. Five years ago, we had visited my daughter and her family when they lived overseas and she had expressed interest in getting out of the military and moving back to Texas. We had supported this idea because she wanted to do it basically, so she and her family moved back to the states, the same week we were closing on our new house, which like I said, needed a lot of renovating. Now remember, I had had surgery on my ankle just four months earlier and in fact was still on crutches when we found the house we ended up buying. Still, my daughter and her entire family moved in with us, and moved with us, and then the minute we got the flooring done and moved into our new house, their household goods arrived in the states and I went out and helped my daughter and her husband find a house for themselves. We helped them move in as well. Helped them get everything lined out (big change between the military and civilian life, and moving from England back to the states). I did a lot of babysitting, hauling boxes, etc - for MONTHS - between our house and theirs. Oh, and then my parents decided to move, and since they were elderly, I helped THEM move. And then, my MIL had to move to assisted living and we had to get their house ready to sell, and we had to move her, so we did all that. Then my parents decided to move back to this area, so I helped them move again. Then my daughter decided to move again (same town, different house) so I helped her move again. Then my dad got sick and died, and my mom had to sell her house and move to assisted living. Then we had to sell two other houses in another state, filled with stuff, well, I had to sell it because my brothers were busy with their own lives (that's for real, not a pithy statement). Meanwhile we were settling my inlaw's estate, and my dad's as well. Then assisted living told me that my mom had declined to the point where we had to move her again, to a memory care facility.

Why is all that good instead of bad? Because it's all done for the most part. And I didn't even throw in that during all this, we gutted our kitchen and master bath, renovated them, and added an outdoor living area. All that's good, but it's stressful.

3. After my stepson's girlfriend got arrested and went to trial, he got his life straightened out - I guess it scared the bejesus out of him, as well it should have. This is good, but it was also stressful.

4. My other daughter and her family also moved back from overseas to the states. Yay! They stayed with us for several weeks till their household goods got here.

5. My oldest son got out of the military, came home for a month, then got married and moved to Guam. Still happily married, which is good.

6. My husband and I finally got to go on vacation two years ago - several years of being unable to go due to family needs. Thank goodness we went because a week after we got home, my dad had a stroke and died and all hell broke loose in my life again with his estate, my daughter's drama, my mother's dementia manifesting full on, etc.

7. My husband and I got counseling and it was very effective. During this counseling, our counselor told both of us that we are completely and utterly normal - but we've both had an extremely stressful few years - RIGHT. I was so stressed out that I honestly didn't know if my reactions were normal or not, so it was good to hear that a professional considered them normal, understandable and actually a healthy response to abnormal circumstances. The counseling was a great help.

8. My husband and I both lost the 30 pounds we gained due to stress over the past several years, and our health improved, mine more than my husband's unfortunately but we're both better off than we were a couple of years ago, mentally, emotionally, and physically.

9. Biggest positive over the past year - my husband and I have refocused on our marriage and our lives together and that has made a HUGE difference. Neither of us wants to live reactively and that's what we felt like we were doing - being forced to be reactive to everyone else's needs and dramas - CONSTANTLY. And therefore we weren't giving our own needs the attention they warranted. We've changed that up and it's been great.

So those are the positives. Now if I just had some local grandbabies to spoil life would be even better.
 
Old 08-25-2018, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
42,404 posts, read 41,164,797 times
Reputation: 81390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondy View Post
But this isn't what happened. What happened is that she tracked down what she remembered and reposted it. Given that was two years or more ago, that must have taken quite a bit of time. Sorry, but that IS obsessive and creepy in my book. YMMV
Not that I'm trying to defend jencam, but ...

No one's "mileage varies" here. ALL posts are easily searchable, and it doesn't take much time at all. Using the Search tab above ^^^ and a keyword, limiting it to certain subforums, it's easy to pull up old posts. I do it all the time.

Context absolutely does matter in situations like this.
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