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Old 07-22-2018, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,879 posts, read 32,642,286 times
Reputation: 57015

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blondy View Post
This is a totally unfair characterization of what Kathryn said.

She didn't say she wanted to LEAN on her daughter, and I'm sure that's not what she meant or expected from her daughter.

Sharing some pleasant family time with a child/grandchildren is not LEANING on them. Its simply a respite from everything else going on.

Until whatever happened that caused this estrangement, they apparently had that kind of relationship or some semblance of it.
Thank you. And you're right.


Well, sort of right. What I tried to do with all my kids as they became adults was to transition from a mother/child mode to an adult to adult mode, and it worked well with my other three kids, on differing time lines. At least one of them, I had to specifically spell that out, because he was wanting on one hand to call me and tell me about all sorts of decisions he was making because he was grown, but on the other hand he wanted to call me and get my advice, which he wouldn't take, and he wanted to sort of have me baby him, but also respect him as a man. I finally had to tell him that though I will always adore him, he IS a grown man (he's 32) and he's married, and I respect all that so please don't ask me to switch back and forth between an equal adult, and a doting mother. To his credit, he totally got it and we've been fine ever since. Same with my other two kids.

But not this one. I don't think she has ever seen our relationship as adult to adult, which is sad and it's also limiting, and it's also not how I have seen it. My gosh, she has had a career in the military, she is the mother of four children, one of which is a teenager, she homeschools, she is artistic and talented and smart and beautiful and I am so amazed and proud of the woman she has become - so be a woman, not a rebellious, secretive, ornery teenager.

So for several years, I thought we were fine - I was enjoying calling her up (or having her call me) and discussing recipes, crafts we were doing, beauty tips, grandkid news, what was for dinner, etc. and I thought we were on an adult to adult level. But apparently we weren't, and I wasn't aware of that. I had NO CLUE that she felt strange about that, till the last few months we were still talking, and she made it very clear that she did not want me to vent with her about any stressors in my life. She made that VERY clear. She did not want to hear it, didn't want to hear about my worries about my parents, my challenges with my mentally ill brother who is her uncle, that sort of thing. This was a surprise to me and it was also very unsettling because all this time I had thought she understood me woman to woman, only to find out that she did not want to hear any of this - that I couldn't even discuss, for instance, options for my mom's care with her, because she simply DID NOT WANT TO HEAR IT and would in fact call me a hardass to my other kids, undermine my decisions, etc.

She was absolutely no help (in fact, she has totally abandoned her grandmother) but she felt perfectly justified in calling my own brothers and her siblings and talking about how hard hearted I was, how ruthless, how cold blooded, etc. Heck, she didn't even know any details because I realized she didn't want to hear them so I wasn't telling her anything.

During that time, I felt like I owed answers to my mother and my two brothers - I wasn't going to try to please or placate everyone else, especially since no one else was actually willing to help.

Though everyone else involved, including my brothers, my other kids, my aunts and uncles, everyone, thought I handled my dad's death, estate, my mom's care, etc. beautifully and within the formerly expressed wishes (which were even freaking written down) of both my parents before they became ill, she to this day thinks I was hard hearted, cold, ruthless, etc. I did what had to be done - no one else was stepping up to do it - and I had to be strong and disciplined and methodical about the whole series of events, because NO ONE ELSE WAS GOING TO DO ANY OF IT.

Oh well, water under the bridge I guess.

 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:10 PM
 
Location: too far from the sea
17,974 posts, read 17,131,123 times
Reputation: 30081
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
I think the "Black Lives Matter" issue is a real issue.

People who can't grasp the concept are considered racist.

Have you done any reading on why "Black Lives Matter" is a mantra.

Saying "all lives matter" indicates you don't "get it." And that could be very offensive to someone who identifies with BLM.


Have you made a list of all of the great traits of your daughter? I think that would help a lot. If you could muster some affection for her, I think it could be healing.
---------------------------------------------


The odd thing is, that until recently this particular daughter DID self identify as biracial. This whole "I'm black and I renounce white people and white privilege" is a new tune from her. Can't much say that I care for it.


------------------------------------------

But she DOES want to identify as black. And she IS renouncing white people. And she is rejecting what you are. (She probably is not rejecting WHO you are, just WHAT you are.) Of course that would hurt but in order to reconcile, you will have to understand what she means and how she feels. Even though it probably feels like swallowing poison, you would have to see her side of it and be able to relate to it.

You can't just say that you two will talk about art and history instead. This issue is too important to her. You can't decide that you two are not going to talk about it. She has to be able to speak and to say what she feels.

So you probably need to read up and study. When you are ready to be able to calmly talk to her and calmly accept her feelings without being hurt, you are ready to try to reconcile. She is probably in pain. You are in pain. Right now if you two got together you would hurt each other even more. She is trying to find herself and separating herself from you and what you are is her way of doing this. Wait, acquaint yourself with her black identity, and someday maybe you two can speak again. But you have to be able to let her be who she is and love her unconditionally whether she is rejecting what you are or not.

(We were estranged by my husband's son for a few years and it was horrible. He had been lied to by his rotten sister but he finally realized she was a liar.) So I know how awful it feels. You are dealing with so much right now and have dealt with a lot recently, this probably seems like the last straw. So maybe you should just kind of let it go for now. Step back. When you are ready, read up and learn what to say and what not to say. And maybe sometime you can try again.
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Old 07-22-2018, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,879 posts, read 32,642,286 times
Reputation: 57015
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
I think the "Black Lives Matter" issue is a real issue.

People who can't grasp the concept are considered racist.

Have you done any reading on why "Black Lives Matter" is a mantra.

Saying "all lives matter" indicates you don't "get it." And that could be very offensive to someone who identifies with BLM.

Have you made a list of all of the great traits of your daughter? I think that would help a lot. If you could muster some affection for her, I think it could be healing.
I hardly ever even SAID "all lives matter." It was more an overall attitude I had and still have - that racism and unfair advantage and unequal or racist uses of power are simply wrong. I don't care what color someone is who utilizes racist behavior. So no, I don't cut any one particular group more or less slack. Don't be racist. Don't break the law. Don't abuse your power. It's not that hard to figure out, if one isn't racist or doesn't boil everything down to skin color.

As for my daughter's great traits, I have bragged about those to her, to other people, etc for years, decades even. I think she is a very beautiful, talented, intelligent, artistic, sensitive woman, among other good traits. I've built her up for decades. I am flat out MAD at her now, so I'm not focusing on all that good stuff, but I've done so in the past till I was blue in the face.

It's not enough though, because I can never really understand her, since I'm white and she's not. Her words and actions, not mine. She absolutely invalidates me based on my skin color and that's it - I'm a middle aged, middle class white woman who can never understand her struggle, so I'm invalidated. Boom.

It's depressing.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:12 PM
 
Location: planet earth
2,885 posts, read 1,014,551 times
Reputation: 6527
Sounds like there is a lot of resentment - so I don't know what you can do, other than appeal to her to allow her children to have a relationship with their grandmother. I am going to assume that she believes you have little to no respect for her (since you wouldn't concede that BLM had any relevant point). I think that is a sticking point. Maybe she doesn't want her kids to have exposure to people she considers racist. Just speculating.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,879 posts, read 32,642,286 times
Reputation: 57015
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
---------------------------------------------


The odd thing is, that until recently this particular daughter DID self identify as biracial. This whole "I'm black and I renounce white people and white privilege" is a new tune from her. Can't much say that I care for it.


------------------------------------------

But she DOES want to identify as black. And she IS renouncing white people. And she is rejecting what you are. (She probably is not rejecting WHO you are, just WHAT you are.) Of course that would hurt but in order to reconcile, you will have to understand what she means and how she feels. Even though it probably feels like swallowing poison, you would have to see her side of it and be able to relate to it.

You can't just say that you two will talk about art and history instead. This issue is too important to her. You can't decide that you two are not going to talk about it. She has to be able to speak and to say what she feels.

So you probably need to read up and study. When you are ready to be able to calmly talk to her and calmly accept her feelings without being hurt, you are ready to try to reconcile. She is probably in pain. You are in pain. Right now if you two got together you would hurt each other even more. She is trying to find herself and separating herself from you and what you are is her way of doing this. Wait, acquaint yourself with her black identity, and someday maybe you two can speak again. But you have to be able to let her be who she is and love her unconditionally whether she is rejecting what you are or not.

(We were estranged by my husband's son for a few years and it was horrible. He had been lied to by his rotten sister but he finally realized she was a liar.) So I know how awful it feels. You are dealing with so much right now and have dealt with a lot recently, this probably seems like the last straw. So maybe you should just kind of let it go for now. Step back. When you are ready, read up and learn what to say and what not to say. And maybe sometime you can try again.
You're right - she is renouncing white people and half her heritage and background. She is renouncing me specifically. She does not like me - me, the person I am. Not just because I'm white, but also because of (fill in the blank, some of it with pure fantasy - she has lied so much about me to other people it's ridiculous, I can't even keep up with all of it).

She can say whatever she wants around me, express her opinions, her feelings, her beliefs, etc. as long as she's respectful when she's doing it (same rules apply to me and apply to every relationship in my life). I don't have to agree with her. She doesn't have to be afraid of me - I've always encouraged my kids to embrace their own adulthood, their own beliefs, lifestyles, etc.

Frankly I'm not sure I'll ever be able to just be gracious when it comes to what I perceive as racism. I am so adamantly opposed to racism - I mean it's at the very core of my being, it's part of who I am. I can't just sweep racism to one side, pretend it isn't there, doesn't matter much, etc. I would never stoop so low as to judge someone because they are a certain color or ethnicity, and it's just so ironic that my own child is doing that to me. Incredibly ironic and very, very hurtful. It's like all that Martin Luther King, Jr and open mindedness that I preached (and lived) my entire life to my kids is being hurled back into my face by a Black Panther waving a flag from an African country in my face, telling me my opinions and feelings are repulsive to her because I am white.

Oh my god! It's appalling to me! I really am not sure I can or should accommodate or support that mindset. I think that's the crux of the issue with me - how much crap am I willing to put up with in order to have some semblance of a relationship with her? Well, wait, that's not even the question because she's not giving me ANY opportunity to be a mother or grandmother.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:23 PM
 
11,607 posts, read 5,449,768 times
Reputation: 10975
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I hardly ever even SAID "all lives matter." It was more an overall attitude I had and still have - that racism and unfair advantage and unequal or racist uses of power are simply wrong. I don't care what color someone is who utilizes racist behavior. So no, I don't cut any one particular group more or less slack. Don't be racist. Don't break the law. Don't abuse your power. It's not that hard to figure out, if one isn't racist or doesn't boil everything down to skin color.
Oh, boy. Yeah, you don't get it. I am also a middle aged white lady, I lack bi-racial children, but I get it more than you do, which is insane. I have no one I NEED to 'get it' for!

Blacks (and biracial people) are disproportionately affected by police misconduct/brutality. You seriously do sound like FOX news. 'Just don't break the law!' As if everything would then be fine.



I'd have trouble with you saying this to me as a white person, as your half-black activist daughter I would freak out.

Then you go on to reject her entire identity. But you have no idea your role in this. I just.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,879 posts, read 32,642,286 times
Reputation: 57015
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
Sounds like there is a lot of resentment - so I don't know what you can do, other than appeal to her to allow her children to have a relationship with their grandmother. I am going to assume that she believes you have little to no respect for her (since you wouldn't concede that BLM had any relevant point). I think that is a sticking point. Maybe she doesn't want her kids to have exposure to people she considers racist. Just speculating.
I am sure that's part of it, which I find to be incredibly ironic since I feel that her behavior is very racist. I mean, very much so. She seems to be teaching her children that white folks are oppressors, racists, etc. by their very nature. I didn't raise her to think this way.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:26 PM
 
Location: planet earth
2,885 posts, read 1,014,551 times
Reputation: 6527
"White folks" have been oppressors to black people. You might want to concede that.

It sounds like you have a long way to go and that you actually have no interest in learning about white privilege. I understand where your daughter is coming from, but your defenses are so great and there is so much resistance, that unless you really WANT to understand, you can go to your grave with your "right" opinion.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:27 PM
 
11,607 posts, read 5,449,768 times
Reputation: 10975
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I am sure that's part of it, which I find to be incredibly ironic since I feel that her behavior is very racist. I mean, very much so. She seems to be teaching her children that white folks are oppressors, racists, etc. by their very nature. I didn't raise her to think this way.
Too bad. She's grown. She doesn't have to be anything like what you wanted. Accept her or don't. You seem to be the one suffering from it, on here asking what can you do about it. You are unwilling to do what you could, so suck it up. Leave her alone. You can't stand who she has become. You made a choice to also give up the grandkids, and you keep making your case over and over in this thread why that is still your choice. I guess if this thread helps you cement the choice you made as a good one, I guess it's helpful to you.
 
Old 07-22-2018, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,879 posts, read 32,642,286 times
Reputation: 57015
Quote:
Originally Posted by jencam View Post
Oh, boy. Yeah, you don't get it. I am also a middle aged white lady, I lack bi-racial children, but I get it more than you do, which is insane. I have no one I NEED to 'get it' for!

Blacks (and biracial people) are disproportionately affected by police misconduct/brutality. You seriously do sound like FOX news. 'Just don't break the law!' As if everything would then be fine.



I'd have trouble with you saying this to me as a white person, as your half-black activist daughter I would freak out.

Then you go on to reject her entire identity. But you have no idea your role in this. I just.
Wow, way to totally miss about half of what I'm saying. I specifically stated that NO ONE SHOULD ABUSE A POSITION OF POWER and that I believe that happens sometimes - I even gave very specific examples earlier in the thread about specific cases that I found to be abhorrent and racist (black people as victims, just to refresh your memory). I KNOW that sometimes law enforcement disproportionately affects people of color, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to have a racist mentality - not white people, not black people, not biracial people.

What part of "don't judge people by the color of their skin but by the content of their character" can I spell out any more clearly?
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