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It is my belief that people who take their own lives (the exception of course being those that are terminally ill) are mentally ill. Therefore asking them to think about consequences or the ethics of suicide doesn't really make a lot of sense.
I disagree. You can't lump all suicides under a general umbrella of mental illness. For some it's a rational choice made after considerable thought about the consequences and ethics. It's a difficult concept for those who haven't been there to understand.
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Originally Posted by SifuPhil
Our society generally views suicide as being somehow "wrong", whether for religious, moral or emotional reasons. A few others see it as a liberating choice, spending no small amount of time considering and planning their last departure.
Just my opinion, but I think they've merely glanced at it and retreated - not looked it full in the face and gone over the Barrier - THAT would be the final victory: embracing Death, not just acknowledging it.
Yeah maybe in some cases. I was thinking more along the lines of someone who's thought there can be no other option than to end it all, actually got to the stage of beginning to carry out their suicide act, but then after almost succeeding (and maybe they survive the attempt) they change their mind for some unselfish reason and decide, not out of fear, but out of unselfishness that they relly should keep living. I think that can happen.
yeah, if you've never contemplated suicide you have zero ground to stand on in a debate about it
e: what I mean is that for one, if a person really truly is contemplating suicide then they really aren't in a state of mind to think about how it may affect others. It's something that enters your mind when you think absolutely nobody can help you... and obviously that's partly because, as said earlier, you're in a bad state of mind. But perhaps a person contemplating suicide feels that way because the people he/she thinks would notice that something's not right, don't. Frankly, calling it selfish is narrow-minded and unless you've truly contemplated it, you can't really understand what goes on in a person's head when they do.
Sometimes life is just too hopeless and not what you had envisioned. You might have family and dear friends, but you perceive yourself to be more a burden to their life than a potential contributor. You sense that they are starting to get sick of your problems - they no longer believe you that you are going to kill yourself because of many previous botched attempts. You have been though therapy and psychiatrists but find it lacking. In cases like this I know people who have decided to kill themselves. Who am I to judge them for their actions? I mean, their families and friends were initially scarred, but now they have moved on to more peaceful lives as well. Sad but true. In any case I bear no resentment towards them for doing what they did, though I don't agree with their choice. I don't think it is necessarily selfish as they are the ones who have to deal with the emotional pain - and in their minds they feel that by taking themselves out of the equation they can reduce other people's emotional burden as well.
Yeah maybe in some cases. I was thinking more along the lines of someone who's thought there can be no other option than to end it all, actually got to the stage of beginning to carry out their suicide act, but then after almost succeeding (and maybe they survive the attempt) they change their mind for some unselfish reason and decide, not out of fear, but out of unselfishness that they relly should keep living. I think that can happen.
Totally agree. There are more flavors of suicide than Pismo Beach has clams.
Schizophrenic suicides, for example - 4 out of 10 schizophrenics attempt suicide - 1 out of 10 succeed. 25%-50% of those with bipolar disorder attempt suicide.
There are also those who are afflicted with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) - 9% commit suicide, often starting with "small cutting" episodes.
When we balance on the edge of life and death, I've heard that often there is a lightning-strike of clarity and peace - life is put into perspective, for however short a period, and rational, logical behavior ensues.
So I suppose we have to distinguish between medical and emotional ("mental") reasons for suicide first, before we judge its merits. Emotional (depression, frustration, fear, etc) suicides can seem unfair because we assume that a sound body has to hang around this mortal coil until it's old and withered. It is difficult to see a young person take their own life because we see the "potential" of a short life "thrown away". Yet their demons can be as real to them as a terminal cancer patient's.
Medical issues that lead to suicidal thoughts, especially occurring after a long and fruitful life, can sometimes seem slightly more acceptable. In these cases it seems to depend upon quality-of-life issues more than lost potential - "At least they've had their run" is an oft-heard phrase.
Even within such differentiations there are shades of gray. The depressed young person might exhibit suicidal tendencies due to true clinical depression (rare) or more likely because of a seemingly (to others) silly reason such as a failed date or being excluded from a FaceBook friend's conversations. In medical cases you can see the spectrum of reasons ranging from suicides due to loss of a hand or a long-term but non-lethal illness (reasons with which we generally do not agree and which seem to cross the line into the emotional aspects) to the prospect of slow, painful, agonizing deaths suffered by a friend or family member, in which we begin to see the merits of assisted suicide.
Our society generally views suicide as being somehow "wrong", whether for religious, moral or emotional reasons. A few others see it as a liberating choice, spending no small amount of time considering and planning their last departure.
Personally I long ago adopted the warrior mindset that tells us to be in control of our lives AND of our deaths; our end should be meaningful, heroic if possible but at the very least well-planned and executed.
I'm debating whether to post my own experiences with suicide here, but I think the possibility might exist that the story I tell might save even one person from making a wrong decision, so as soon as I gather my thoughts on the subject I'll probably post it here.
In the meantime, allow me to just add that there ARE informed ways of making our final exits with a minimum of fuss and disruption to others. Organizations such as The Hemlock Society (which has folded into an organization known as Compassion and Choice) offer support, information and empathy for the seeker as well as their loved ones.
I think it is a very interesting opinion. I would be curious to know more of your personal experience, because it is very difficult for me to agree with this position.
Unless a person is left with no family or friends, I cannot imagine how his suicide will ever be viewed with minimum fuss and disruption to others. I think the reason why suicide is considered wrong is not only because of religious beliefs but for the reasons of how it affects others. The suicide is never going to be perceived as heroic by children who are left without a father, by parents who are left without a child and left to suffer the consequences of this "heroic" escape for the rest of their lives.
I know someone who had committed suicide and left 2 young kids behind. They walked in on their father hanging. Young kids are not capable of understanding and dealing with tragedy as such and suffered tremendously. Years later, they are still emotionally damaged from this. Perhaps that's where my bias comes from.
Although as I said earlier in the thread, I cannot judge a person who ends his life as I've never been in his shoes, I don't think I can ever see myself viewing him as a stoic, strong person, a warrior, who took life into his own hands and ended it.
I don't have any answers, or firm opinions - just questions and some confusion because of apparent contradictions in law and culture.
If it is selfish for a person who is in unbearable pain (whether physical or emotional), because it hurts the people left behind, then it seems selfish of those people to put their needs ahead of the person contemplating suicide.
It seesm odd to me that as a society we try to intervene to prevent death by suicide (i.e., someone who wants to die, perhaps for good reasons), yet do so little to prevent the deaths of poor or disadvantaged people who don't have the resources to pay for proper medical care (i.e, people who would strongly choose to live if they could only obtain treatment). Is this blind hypocrisy?
If a parent neglects to obtain care for a child because they can't afford it, they may be charged with abuse or neglect, yet politicians making laws that make care unavailable to those in need (to save costs) are lauded instead of charged with wrongful death or manslaughter. Likewise, the people who put them in office on the premise they would cut such costs are also partially responsible for the deaths of hundreds or thousands, yet want to stop an individual from making a personal choice that does not even affect them.
As I said, I don't see the essential difference in these examples, but do think we should each have a right to self-determination.
I just have to say, I really appreciate all of the viewpoints broght forth in this discussion. Everyone has their valid points and individual perspectives. Thanks to all who have contributed thus far. For the record, I will say this, I too, hold no grudges against the person who commits suicide. I might feel as if (in certain cases), it was a selfish act for them to commit....but at the same time, you can not get into someone's mind. We will never know just how deeply the person was hurting. We will never know ALL of the events which led up to the person's decision to end it. We might know a FEW of the "excuses" they gave, but never each and every event, throughout that person's life that stacked up...just right, that haunt a person and lead them to that final decision. Without a doubt, we do have to know that the person, somehow, was in such a horrific amount of emotional pain and turmoil, that there WAS no turning back and for some terrible reason, could find absolutely no good reason to continue living. We are not equipped with the same coping power or strategies. Pain tolerance varies so greatly among individuals. Again, thanks to all who have contributed to this discussion.
I think it is a very interesting opinion. I would be curious to know more of your personal experience, because it is very difficult for me to agree with this position.
*reaches for his persuasion hat*
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Unless a person is left with no family or friends, I cannot imagine how his suicide will ever be viewed with minimum fuss and disruption to others. I think the reason why suicide is considered wrong is not only because of religious beliefs but for the reasons of how it affects others. The suicide is never going to be perceived as heroic by children who are left without a father, by parents who are left without a child and left to suffer the consequences of this "heroic" escape for the rest of their lives.
I suppose "heroic" depends upon one's perception. If I were given the choice between a prolonged and painful death, where my children could arrange a daily visit to watch me become something unrecognizable and feared, never knowing when the end would come but admiring the pretty machines and lights and tubes keeping me "alive" for them - and the opportunity to participate in my own death with dignity and honor and at the same time teach them one final important lesson about life...
...I would choose the latter without a moment's hesitation.
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I know someone who had committed suicide and left 2 young kids behind. They walked in on their father hanging. Young kids are not capable of understanding and dealing with tragedy as such and suffered tremendously. Years later, they are still emotionally damaged from this. Perhaps that's where my bias comes from.
Understandably that's a major trauma to a person of ANY age. Part of what I like to call my "suicide protocol" is to ensure that no such discoveries take place, or if they do they are prearranged with trusted friends or family members.
In death, as in life, i would always seek to protect the innocent.
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Although as I said earlier in the thread, I cannot judge a person who ends his life as I've never been in his shoes, I don't think I can ever see myself viewing him as a stoic, strong person, a warrior, who took life into his own hands and ended it.
Well, my perceptions come largely from my adopted Eastern philosophies, the "Scholar-Warrior" culture and from the good ol' school of hard knocks. To understand how suicide can indeed serve as a beautiful illustration of the person's bravery and strength one needs to understand a certain amount of warrior philosophies. If I post what O was thinking of posting I might get into that a bit, as it would be germane to the subject. Suffice it to say that I've "bought into" the whole Scholar-Warrior "Way" and it serves as the model I must follow.
yeah, if you've never contemplated suicide you have zero ground to stand on in a debate about it
e: what I mean is that for one, if a person really truly is contemplating suicide then they really aren't in a state of mind to think about how it may affect others. It's something that enters your mind when you think absolutely nobody can help you... and obviously that's partly because, as said earlier, you're in a bad state of mind. But perhaps a person contemplating suicide feels that way because the people he/she thinks would notice that something's not right, don't. Frankly, calling it selfish is narrow-minded and unless you've truly contemplated it, you can't really understand what goes on in a person's head when they do.
I agree with this 100%.
People contemplating suicide because of depression are not looking at anything in the same light as those who are not. Life is painful; death looks inviting and many genuinely feel that their loved ones will be better off, or at least will be fine, without them. It's no more selfish for them to take their own lives than it is for a terminally ill person to die of his or her disease.
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