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Old 01-14-2011, 10:48 AM
 
950 posts, read 1,784,390 times
Reputation: 633

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am afraid they do if those personal beliefs are going to somehow affect others, such as when people want to label the action "immoral" "ammoral" or even "illegal" which is what many people here want to do.

What needs to be justified is that the action IS harmful or toxic. You do not just get to declare it is. Things do not become true simply because you choose to say they are true.

If there are arguments against it, then simply present them. This constant cop out by many users who are simply saying "It is wrong because it just is and I do not need to back that up" really just shows us that people do not even know themselves why they thing it wrong and that is worrying.

But as often happens when people do not know why they think the way they do, they just go on and on making excuses for this, rather than sitting down and questioning why. This is a weakness I think.

False actually. I think if you move your eyes to the top of the screen you will find this is a thread in the DEBATE section of the forum. Debates are not where people merely express their opinion and then run away. Debates are where people choose a side and defend that side with arguments, with evidence, with data and with reasoning.

If you want to simply express what your opinion is and leave then I must question your choice to come to this part of the forum. Read the actual charter of this forum. It is in a STICKY POST HERE for all to read. Let me quote some of it to help you out:




So no simply saying "it is wrong because it just is and I dont need to back that up" is not what this forum is about. Sorry.
You are defending your stance which is understandable. What I do not understand is the attitude and snideness behind some of your comments. I know what forum this is, and I know what the rules are, you do not need to post a link. You do not need to imply I, or anyone really, is copping out, or running away, because they do not line up with your point of view. It comes off as seeming arrogant superior complexish, and does nothing to substantiate the context of your posts. It only incites. Expressing an opposing viewpoint can be heated and in the moment, but there is no need to get personal and put yourself above the other person. I can see that you have been going at this for quite a while now. I recomend maybe taking a break and shaking it off. However, that is just my opinion.

 
Old 01-14-2011, 12:37 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
21,159 posts, read 19,026,962 times
Reputation: 29650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Just because we do not approve of someones chosen partner, does not give us some magical right to deride them.
Well, I wouldn't call our right to deride incest "magical," but we have it nonetheless.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 02:41 AM
 
5,314 posts, read 1,967,395 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvjd View Post
The vast majority of people who have an opinion one way or the next do not go around villianizing people with opposing lifestyles and viewpoints.
It would indeed be a much nicer world if that were indeed true but I think you are typing this sentence with your rose tinted glasses firmly placed on the end of your nose.

The fact is we are a judgmental species and anything that is different is judged and not usually favorably. I find it very useful therefore to point out to such people that their biases, bigotries and opinions are often without basis... while I also find it useful to explore within myself the opinions I have to check if there is actually good reason to have them. I have found, and corrected, over the years many such things by actually searching for a basis for my positions, and in some cases even changed them when I could find no basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvjd View Post
I do not ask for justification from the person because I do not feel that I must justify myself.
Then again I strongly question your choice to post on the "Great Debates" part of the "City Data Forum" given that this is the part of the forum where you ARE expected to justify your positions. I must reiterate my recommendation to read the forum rules for this section which you can find here. It specifically suggests that the moderators may ban people from this section for not following them and I quoted the parts already for you that suggest you do need to justify what you espouse here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvjd View Post
YYou do not need to imply I, or anyone really, is copping out, or running away, because they do not line up with your point of view.
Strawman alert! I not once did this. I not once said they are copping out because they do not line up with me. I said they are copping out because they are espousing a point of view, and not backing that point of view up, which is what this forum is about.

So I do not appreciate you taking what I have said... changing it entirely to something else.... and then disagreeing with that instead. Disagreeing with something someone never espoused is not big, not clever and not honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Well, I wouldn't call our right to deride incest "magical," but we have it nonetheless.
Then simply present your reasoning for doing so if you can. The issue I have is that people here simply deride it and then run away without providing any reasoning what so ever. The only conclusion we are left with then is that their position is based on nothing but bigotry... unless they can show otherwise. I myself have made posts of great length arguing and justifying the position I hold. That others can not do the same is disappointing... but telling.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 08:31 AM
 
527 posts, read 543,982 times
Reputation: 531
As each person has views and can see different things differently from own eyes when it comes down to it- It is what it is- In my eyes as many others in society we may feel that Incest (not talking about distant cousins but true Mother and Son, Father and daughter, siblings etc) is not correct because it goes against family dynamics and our culture, the roles of parents would no longer be true and nurturing there would be no boundaries and the code of nature would be broken- The same debate can be said about cannibalism, who is to say that it is wrong if my neighbor enjoys the taste of flesh and he could make a stew out of me? I might find that absolutely disgusting but I am SURE their is someone whacko enough out there to debate that with me. Same thing I am sure there is a farmer out there who gets it on with his sheep or cow, Again, I find that disgusting and against the rule of nature BUT again I am sure there are people out there who can "debate" me on the subject. The debate on these subjects can go on and on.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 08:39 AM
 
5,314 posts, read 1,967,395 times
Reputation: 2036
The issue here is that „family dynamics” are changing all the time… in many species… including our own. In our history relationships were polygamous, and in our present there is a steady increase of single parenting. There is no “code of nature” dictating how this “should” be, it just varies over time to adapt to the ever changing environment.

Like a previous poster you are working on an assumption that change is bad. You are merely declaring that X will lead to change… and leaving the paragraph hanging as if everyone will just take for granted that change is bad…. we do not want that…. so therefore the cause of that change must be bad too.

This is of course before we point out that the number of people actually engaging in such things is massively in the minority, many for reasons I have already pointed out as to why I personally have no interest in engaging in incest with anyone in my own family. The idea therefore that such change would occur…. your massive assumption that change is automatically bad aside….. is therefore baseless as the number of people engaged in it is so small.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 03:13 PM
 
20 posts, read 18,023 times
Reputation: 23
cause the bible says so:
Old Testament dealing with this offense is in Leviticus 18:6-18. Sexual cohabitation was not permitted between a man and his mother, his sister, a granddaughter, an aunt, etc. The most serious punishment was execution (Leviticus 20:11-17).
 
Old 01-18-2011, 02:21 AM
 
5,314 posts, read 1,967,395 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by heroe View Post
cause the bible says so:
Old Testament dealing with this offense is in Leviticus 18:6-18. Sexual cohabitation was not permitted between a man and his mother, his sister, a granddaughter, an aunt, etc. The most serious punishment was execution (Leviticus 20:11-17).
We are talking about incest in modern day, and there is no argument I am aware of to consider the bible an authority on anything today, let alone on a specific subject like this.

If you have arguments that suggest we should pander to the bible at all, let alone your interpretation of one passage in it, then I am agog to hear them, but until that point I do not think this is submissable data. It is just a book.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
21,159 posts, read 19,026,962 times
Reputation: 29650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Then simply present your reasoning for doing so if you can. The issue I have is that people here simply deride it and then run away without providing any reasoning what so ever. The only conclusion we are left with then is that their position is based on nothing but bigotry... unless they can show otherwise. I myself have made posts of great length arguing and justifying the position I hold. That others can not do the same is disappointing... but telling.
I did present my reasoning. I said "why not?" is not a good enough reason for people who are physically revolted by the idea. I likened it to drinking urine. I've heard several arguments about how healthy it is and why I should do it and how other cultures do it, but that's not enough to keep me from gagging. Maybe there's a good reason I'm gagging, maybe not. Most people gag at the idea of having sex with a close relative, and I'm not about to disregard that simply because we don't know why that is. I can't think of a good reason not to drink a quart of my own urine, but that doesn't mean I should do it.

I'm not sure what you're even arguing about. Is there a law that makes consensual sex between mother and son illegal? Is that what you are protesting? Are there groups of fathers and daughters who are being denied marriage, whose plight I am supposed to know about? Maybe when Stonewall II occurs and the downtrodden incestuous masses revolt against their oppressors, I'll revisit the topic. Right now it seems to be a non-issue.
 
Old 01-19-2011, 01:37 AM
 
5,314 posts, read 1,967,395 times
Reputation: 2036
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
I did present my reasoning. I said "why not?" is not a good enough reason for people who are physically revolted by the idea.
No it is not. Especially not on this forum where the Charter says specifically that you must post your reasoning and explanations for the position and one lines are discouraged. So "Why not" simply is not enough here.

If you are revolted by an idea, product or action then simply do not engage in it. I am horrifically revolted by the smell, taste and even the sight of coffee. So I simply do not buy or drink the stuff. Simple as. I do not go around calling coffee immoral, amoral or even illegal simply because of my personal distaste for it. That is the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
I likened it to drinking urine.
They are nothing alike except for what I just said... if you do not want to do it... do not do it. Simple as. Your issue here seems to be that you think that people saying that the arguments for incest being immoral are weak is the same as them saying that YOU should PERSONALLY engage in incest. No one is trying to get you to... at.... all. People are too quick to equate "It is ok to do X" with "We want you to do X". You would do well to contemplate at length what the difference between those two things actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Right now it seems to be a non-issue.
Then simply stop posting about it. This is a DEBATE forum where people take a subject, regardless of whether it is an "issue" or not... take their side in it.... and defend it. I do not care if it is an "issue" for you, or for me, or not. This is where people have a debate about anything and defend their position on that debate.

Coming into a DEBATE forum and complaining that people are DEBATING is a little odd do you not think????
 
Old 01-19-2011, 09:52 AM
 
950 posts, read 1,784,390 times
Reputation: 633
Nozz, I see the point you are trying to make and it is valid, it is just that what I am observing here is that you seem to assume that because someone states that they are put off by something means that they are stating it is immoral, amoral, or criminal. You can disagree with something and simultaneously not demonize the individual for their position and/or life choice. I do not hold personal disdain for someone who is involved in a relationship of their own choosing, even if it is something that I would never choose to do. I might question their motives and the stability of the relationship if prodded to do so in the privacy of my own company, but would not protest their right to be together providing they are both adults. And when speaking in the context of offspring, I am far less concerned with the potential of birth issues than I am with the overall psychosocial well being of a child who has the stigma of his grandfather being his father, aunt being his mother, etc. However, that is a different topic altogether considering that a sexual relationship does not mean offspring, and social norms/customs play a great role in it.
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