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So if that is the case...... if a 250 lb black guy robbed and rapped your 120 lb wife, daughter or girl friend........thats just life huh? He was stronger and she was weaker and there should be no attempts at justice because life is just not fair and the famale should just follow your advice in blue? If not....then your argument is hypocritical.
Very ridiculous analogy btw.
But if there were no legal system that would ensure that the perpetrator was brought to justice, then I would certainly take it into my own hands, arm myself and bring about some vigilante justice. There is no doubt about that. I would certainly not sit around and cry about being a victim, while the victimizer of my family roams around without being punished.
However, in international politics, is there a justice system? Is there an arbitrator? No, international politics is a jungle. Survival of the fittest. The nations that cannot defend themselves get victimized by those who do.
I am not saying this is what I want to see. I actually greatly sympathize with the oppressed. However, unfortunately if you look back in history, this has always been the case and it is human nature. I don't see how it will change.
But if there were no legal system that would ensure that the perpetrator was brought to justice, then I would certainly take it into my own hands, arm myself and bring about some vigilante justice. There is no doubt about that. I would certainly not sit around and cry about being a victim, while the victimizer of my family roams around without being punished.
However, in international politics, is there a justice system? Is there an arbitrator? No, international politics is a jungle. Survival of the fittest. The nations that cannot defend themselves get victimized by those who do.
I am not saying this is what I want to see. I actually greatly sympathize with the oppressed. However, unfortunately if you look back in history, this has always been the case and it is human nature. I don't see how it will change.
You say the analogy is ridiculous, but all I did was apply your “the stronger shall rule over the weaker” theory. The only thing that makes the argument ridiculous is that it demonstrates where your principle becomes selective. As soon as your theory is mapped to a situation where you or a loved one would be negatively impacted…..it becomes ridiculous. Furthermore, the truth is that if blacks armed themselves to attack “the state” for its role in their oppression, I find it hard to believe that you would agree with that either, despite it being the course of action you would take if there were no legal body responsible for doing so for your wife or daughter.
Let me ask this philosophical question. Is evil a strength? There is a saying that “nice guys finish last”. Is the world order one in which the nicest people are at the bottom and the most evil people are at the top? I cannot recall any city-state, nation-state or kingdom rising to riches and wealth through benevolence. So it appears to me that “evil” is a strength or competitive advantage in competition.
I understand the Darwinian survival of the fittest…..or evilest theory. If a people were truly “good” they would do what’s right. However, if a people are basically not good……they will not. Its as simple as that.
You say the analogy is ridiculous, but all I did was apply your “the stronger shall rule over the weaker” theory. The only thing that makes the argument ridiculous is that it demonstrates where your principle becomes selective. As soon as your theory is mapped to a situation where you or a loved one would be negatively impacted…..it becomes ridiculous. Furthermore, the truth is that if blacks armed themselves to attack “the state” for its role in their oppression, I find it hard to believe that you would agree with that either, despite it being the course of action you would take if there were no legal body responsible for doing so for your wife or daughter.
Let me ask this philosophical question. Is evil a strength? There is a saying that “nice guys finish last”. Is the world order one in which the nicest people are at the bottom and the most evil people are at the top? I cannot recall any city-state, nation-state or kingdom rising to riches and wealth through benevolence. So it appears to me that “evil” is a strength or competitive advantage in competition.
I understand the Darwinian survival of the fittest…..or evilest theory. If a people were truly “good” they would do what’s right. However, if a people are basically not good……they will not. Its as simple as that.
If Blacks were being persecuted like they were prior to the 60's, then I agree that they have every right to arm themselves.
I think the Black Panthers were a natural outgrowth of oppression. I don't blame them at all.
If I were Black and lived during those times, I would definitely take up a gun and shoot at the Klansmen coming at my door.
I don't see how I have been selective in any way. As per your analogy, I definitely wouldn't sit around being a victim.
For some of the people on this thread some suggestive reading:
"The Debt, What America Owes to Blacks by Randall Robinson"
Amazon sells this book!
Here is a timeline involving companies (many of which are still around today) that profited and not only profited but built their fortunes off of the slave trade.
1850
The Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac Railroad, part of CSX today, paid slave owners $30 to $150 a piece to rent slaves for a year. Price in 1850: $150 In today's dollars: $3,379
1856
The Mobile & Girard, now part of Norfolk Southern, offered slaveholders $180 a piece for slaves they would rent to the railroad for one year. 1856: $180 Today: $3,737
1859
The Central of Georgia, a Norfolk Southern line today, valued its slaves at $31,303. 1859: $31,303 Today: $663,033
1865
The Nashville & Chattanooga Railroad, today part of CSX, placed a value of $128,773 on the slaves it lost as a result of emancipation at the conclusion of the Civil War. 1865: $128,773 Today: $1.4 million
1865
The Mobile & Ohio, now part of Canadian National, valued slaves lost to the war and emancipation at $199,691. 1865: $199,691 Today: $2.2 million
Companieswith slavetrade ties: Insurers Aetna, New York Life and AIG and financial giants J.P. Morgan Chase Manhattan Bank and FleetBoston Financial Group, Brown Bros. Harriman and Lehman Bros,
Railroads Norfolk Southern, CSX, Union Pacific and Canadian National.
Textile maker WestPoint Stevens.
Newspaper publishers Knight Ridder, Tribune, Media General, Advance Publications, E.W. Scripps and Gannett, parent and publisher of USA TODAY.
[quote=NewYorkBorn;18134601]For some of the people on this thread some suggestive reading:
"The Debt, What America Owes to Blacks by Randall Robinson"
Amazon sells this book!
Ah, please don't whisper to go look at Amazon again. Way too early in the month for more books... Got five history/journal/memiour ones on the way.
But back to the post. I have no argument that blacks were used as possessions. They were "rented". But if the argument is that the RR companies owe "reperations" to someone now for what happened over a 100, even close to 200 years ago, it gets stretched rather thin. If it was the RR company at the point slaves were freed and the actual slaves or their direct descendents such as children were around, I can see it. But how many generations later?
My whole heritage prior to the end of the Civil war is southern. Yes, there were slave owners. Do I owe someone money because my way back ancestors did as they did? What exactly did I do that damaged them?
And maybe we shoud not be talking about $$$ but something far more important. My mom (and myself) was raised in California and my Grandmother in Texas. But she opposed segregation during the war, and abuse of people in general. My grandmother stored a Japanese American neighbors things safely the whole war, a *personal* act of conscieness. My dad boycotted his home state for years while the Klan and White Supremecy Council killed and threated to prevent integration. He *chose* not to see his family and for his kid not to either for principal.
So what has the greater effect, useless arguments about giving people who's ancestors multiple generations ago should get money for what others ancestors of multiple generations did, and keeping up the blame game, or actually changing the perception and letting go the hate? Which will in the end make life for the next generation and for everyone a better place?
Let's say that you were hit by a drunk driver.... from the accident....your family is devasted both mentally and financially by your death.....based on what your saying the drunk driver who killed you does not have to pay your family because after all why should your family be paid when they were not the ones who were hit by the car and killed....see how ridiculous that concept is?
Now let's use the same reasoning:
African's were kidnapped from their home....women brutally raped by white men.....names were changed (identity stolen)...religion, culture, knowledge of birthplace forever erased (race of people now live with complete irreversible abnesia)....un-countable numbers died on slave ships, even more at the hands of white slave owners who decided to lynch them in trees.....almost 400 years of forced slavery and free labor to build the United States of America....families split up, children who never saw mothers and fathers again....husbands and wives who never saw eachother again....all sanctioned by the US governments LAWS....and then to make it all worse.....only white people profited and became rich while black people only passed on poverty to their children....and you believe that to say that payment is owed for pain, suffering and loss is hate....how do you get up everyday and look at yourself in the mirror nightbird47?
Work = pay....therefore a debt is owed to the descendants of black slaves who worked to build this country and never received the 40 acres of land and the mule promised by the US government. Just because years have gone by and the victim is dead does not make the responsibility of the perpetrator of the crime any less responsible to pay the debt. It is not the fault of todays living African Americans that the US dragged it's feet on paying this debt and now those victims are deceased.
Another thing pretty tired of hearing this BS "if my family did the crime and not me then why should I have to pay"? Nobody is asking individual people to write a check to pay the debt owed. The US government allowed the atrocity to go on through their laws and that resulted in the US, Europe and a whole host of other people and companies to become wealthy....therefore as the ones who commited the crime they should be the ones to pay the debt. They waste millions of dollars for a war trying to steal another countries oil....why not right something that they did wrong. If we all claim to believe in the mantra of the US...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness......then that means we also believe in the law......well laws created a situation for murder, theft, and free labor!
And no African Americans should not just move on and forget about it...the Jews never allow their children to forget what Hitler did!
Last edited by NewYorkBorn; 03-04-2011 at 04:44 PM..
Let's say that you were hit by a drunk driver.... from the accident....your family is devasted both mentally and financially by your death.....based on what your saying the drunk driver who killed you does not have to pay your family because after all why should your family be paid when they were not the ones who were hit by the car and killed....see how ridiculous that concept is?
Now let's use the same reasoning:
African's were kidnapped from their home....women brutally raped by white men.....names were changed (identity stolen)...religion, culture, knowledge of birthplace forever erased (race of people now live with complete irreversible abnesia)....un-countable numbers died on slave ships, even more at the hands of white slave owners who decided to lynch them in trees.....almost 400 years of forced slavery and free labor to build the United States of America....families split up, children who never saw mothers and fathers again....husbands and wives who never saw eachother again....all sanctioned by the US governments LAWS....and then to make it all worse.....only white people profited and became rich while black people only passed on poverty to their children....and you believe that to say that payment is owed for pain, suffering and loss is hate....how do you get up everyday and look at yourself in the mirror nightbird47?
Work = pay....therefore a debt is owed to the descendants of black slaves who worked to build this country and never received the 40 acres of land and the mule promised by the US government. Just because years have gone by and the victim is dead does not make the responsibility of the perpetrator of the crime any less responsible to pay the debt. It is not the fault of todays living African Americans that the US dragged it's feet on paying this debt and now those victims are deceased.
Another thing pretty tired of hearing this BS "if my family did the crime and not me then why should I have to pay"? Nobody is asking individual people to write a check to pay the debt owed. The US government allowed the atrocity to go on through their laws and that resulted in the US, Europe and a whole host of other people and companies to become wealthy....therefore as the ones who commited the crime they should be the ones to pay the debt. They waste millions of dollars for a war trying to steal another countries oil....why not right something that they did wrong. If we all claim to believe in the mantra of the US...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness......then that means we also believe in the law......well laws created a situation for murder, theft, and free labor!
And no African Americans should not just move on and forget about it...the Jews never allow their children to forget what Hitler did!
I don't think you should forget it. Although, I wouldn't hold your breath for a pay day either.
How far back do we take this "reparations" business? And by doing so are we legitimizing and institutionalizing a stoked revenge complex that ultimately benefits not one of us?
Me, personally, I'd like full reparations for all my families lost property taken by the communists. I'd like payment for all the dead injured and spiritually broken members of my family, crushed by dictators. I'd like that money that property back now, from the governments that occupy those territories NOW. I don't care that its not the very same people, it's guilt by association, I inherited the pain the loss, they get to inherit the payment due.
I'd like reparations for all the monies that governments have forced me to pay under duress under threat of imprisonment or death to fund every manner of immoral activity I find personally repugnant. I want back-payment with interest on that money and I want it right now.
...see where this is going?.....
It never ends, because who was the oppressor then is the oppressed now and on and on it goes. Doubtless there is no such thing as a group who has never oppressed or been oppressed at some point in time.
Best evidence for the insanity caused by the endless "revenge" mentality (of which reparations is just one manifestation) is the mess in the Muslim world. Revenge gets you, as an individual and us as a global community absolutely nowhere.
The very first step toward a cure for this mental and emotional abnormality that is revenge is to learn humility, then compassion, then forgiveness. If you don't the acid that is the oppressor eats you too.
Let's say that you were hit by a drunk driver.... from the accident....your family is devasted both mentally and financially by your death.....based on what your saying the drunk driver who killed you does not have to pay your family because after all why should your family be paid when they were not the ones who were hit by the car and killed....see how ridiculous that concept is?
Now let's use the same reasoning:
African's were kidnapped from their home....women brutally raped by white men.....names were changed (identity stolen)...religion, culture, knowledge of birthplace forever erased (race of people now live with complete irreversible abnesia)....un-countable numbers died on slave ships, even more at the hands of white slave owners who decided to lynch them in trees.....almost 400 years of forced slavery and free labor to build the United States of America....families split up, children who never saw mothers and fathers again....husbands and wives who never saw eachother again....all sanctioned by the US governments LAWS....and then to make it all worse.....only white people profited and became rich while black people only passed on poverty to their children....and you believe that to say that payment is owed for pain, suffering and loss is hate....how do you get up everyday and look at yourself in the mirror nightbird47?
Work = pay....therefore a debt is owed to the descendants of black slaves who worked to build this country and never received the 40 acres of land and the mule promised by the US government. Just because years have gone by and the victim is dead does not make the responsibility of the perpetrator of the crime any less responsible to pay the debt. It is not the fault of todays living African Americans that the US dragged it's feet on paying this debt and now those victims are deceased.
Another thing pretty tired of hearing this BS "if my family did the crime and not me then why should I have to pay"? Nobody is asking individual people to write a check to pay the debt owed. The US government allowed the atrocity to go on through their laws and that resulted in the US, Europe and a whole host of other people and companies to become wealthy....therefore as the ones who commited the crime they should be the ones to pay the debt. They waste millions of dollars for a war trying to steal another countries oil....why not right something that they did wrong. If we all claim to believe in the mantra of the US...life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness......then that means we also believe in the law......well laws created a situation for murder, theft, and free labor!
And no African Americans should not just move on and forget about it...the Jews never allow their children to forget what Hitler did!
Moving on and forgetting are two entirely different things. We can remember the past without being entangled in the emotions of it and study it without having to find a way to get revenge on dead people. Moving on frees us all to start over.
First of all, those who were children way back then, who's parents were no longer are still survivors of slavery. If some sort of reperation was to be paid they should recieve it since it directly effected them. But it wasn't then. The southern families who had owned them couldn't pay them anything since most were plunged into deep poverty themselves. So who *would* pay? The north was the victor and wouldn't have felt inclined. So nobody did.
And then fast forward a centrury and a half and a lot of generations, a whole different world and this agenda. There is NOBODY alive today who held another as a slave. There is very litte chance there is anyone who's parents did. Nobody alive did the crime. So why should it carry guilt? It is very unfortunate but things which perhaps should have been done to compensate a wrong often never happen. Three generations later, minimum, it no longer is owed. You can't force guilt where none is needed. But if the old hatred can be let go, and recogniton of the rights of those around them *now* can happen and should. The idea may not feel so good but for everyone comes a time to acknowledge a wrong was done, weather the one who did it do so or not, and let go of it so you move on.
And consider what placing themselves in the ever constant state of victumhood does to people. The blacks today do NOT have to be victums. There are plenty of chances to not be. Nobody enslaved them or their parents. They don't even live in a world that is comparable. It is up to them as *individuals* to do the best they can for their *own* sense of self worth. Claiming victumhood of many generations ago does nothing to add to one's own worth.
What your suggesting is this. Man and woman have a child. Child is harmed by someone. That someone gets away, and dies but has a child. So now since the father did not "pay" the child should instead when he didn't do anything. Sad, the child's harm was never resolved, but also there comes a time to let go or the harm continues to harm long after it was done.
Should we remember? Sure, as a historical face. As a part of our history. As a factor in many things. As a *human* experience. As an agenda to blame the decendents? No. We study the past and should never forget about it. But we study to learn what made it happen and how it's best can be preserved and the worse avoided in the future.
As for your other comparison, there is more to it than just abuse and remembering. It's prevention. There is zero chance we are going to recreate the Old South. We are not going to start holding slaves and make it the base of our economy. Remember, at the same time the North was paying immigrants who lived in what amounts to ghettos practically nothing. They came out ahead of the southerners in the end because they didn't have to maintain the sick, the young and granny. The factory workers worked just as hard for minor compensation but nobody but able bodies needed to be supported. If anything, we would be more likely to fall into that. We do need to remember the slave experience not because it can product $$$ if you spin it right or nor because its an excuse to play victum, but because it is a central part of our history and we should learn from it by being better.
The sort of things which happened with Hiter are hidious beyond words. The steps by which he was able to get there are documented. Nobody should forget. It serves as a warning about the road to genocide and how it can wear different disguises. Jews (and slavs, gypsies, germans who had relatives who opposed Hitler, or for that matter anyone willing to fight the system) remember because it is still a part of the past with survivors and children of survivors. And it HAS repeated. Check out a documentary called Worse than War. Netflix has it. In a hundered years, none of the people who were participants in the Holocaust will be around, nor their children. It will still not be forgotten but it will be of the past. The great grand child of a survivor will have no need to feel like a victum, nor the descendent of the perpetrator feel some sort of personal guilt. Time will have moved on. The rememberance will be for the purpose of seeing that it never be tolerated to happen again. Unfortunately, the likelyhood that some national/racial group will be targeted for extermination by another is one that will likely never be over.
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