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Old 02-23-2011, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,119,050 times
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I can't nor will attempt to speak about any other group other than American Indians. I can do this as I am one; however, it must be understood that this is ONE Comanche's opinion.

I don't know exactly what you mean when you say "reparations". Are you talking about some sort of individual payment or something of that nature? Would this be a one time or life long stipend? I don't know what that would do in the end other than create more dependency on the government. With that out of the way...

There is a BIG difference between American Indians and other "ethnic" people in the United States. Our Nations have treaties with the United States government. Article VI, paragraph 2, of the US Constitution makes treaties made under the authority of the United States the supreme law of the land on the same footing with acts of Congress. Yet, everyone of these treaties were broken by the United States. We still expect the US Government to honor those. Many of us cannot and will not forget it or "let it go". Call it reparations if you will, but we call it the supreme law of the land by the US Government's own words.

 
Old 02-24-2011, 12:20 PM
 
45 posts, read 37,846 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by STLCardsBlues1989 View Post
I don't want to start a racial debate, but this is a genealogy forum, so this ties in.

Obviously our country has had terrible human rights abuses in the past. Up until 100 years ago women and minorities could not vote. Before that blacks were enslaved. Native Americans were killed and abused and forced off their land. Even whiter people, such as Irish immigrants or the Japanese during World War II, were mistreated at some point. Some races have been treated poorly probably longer than others, but most groups of people have been persecuted at some point.

Affirmative action is a controversial subject. Some say that is helps minorities and woman to get ahead in an unbalanced world. Others say that it causes an unbalance by giving minorities and women an unfair advantage. I can certainly see the arguments for both sides.

Obviously all we can each do is talk about our own experiences. I am not and will never be another race. Nor will I ever be a man. So my experience as a white woman might be different than others. I may not understand racism if I do not experience it. That said, just from what I have observed, it does seem to me that the world is more balanced today than it was when affirmative action began. Others might disagree with me, and my opinion is based on my own experiences.

Going further than that, I have read that some people have suggested that white descendants of slaveholders (for example) should provide some kind of reparations to the descendants of slaves. This has also been suggested for Native Americans. This is a view that does not seem to be a common one.

While I sympathize with what Blacks and Native Americans went through (and probably still do in some places to some extent), I'm not really sure what good reparations would do. It would probably further divide us. For one, probably many descendants of slaves were also descendants of slaveowners. Same often holds true that Whites often have Native American ancestry, and possibly vise versa. A program like this would be divisive and confusing. Probably few of us are not mixed race at all, especially if you include the way that Chinese, Japanese, and Irish people were treated at different times. Would this really help race relations any?

I could understand wanting justice for people who were abused, but I'm not sure that a person should be treated a certain way because of who their ancestors are. Unfortunately sometimes they still are, though I suppose that crosses racial lines. Even if the reparations came from the government (instead of individuals) and were given to one race or the other, will that really solve anything? It seems to me that it would just cause more resentment.

I could certainly have understood demanding reparations from slaveholders while they were alive to slaves while they were alive. However, a century-plus years later, would reparations do any good? Of course, there are still minorities living today who have experienced extreme prejudice. I think part of that depends on where you live. However, is there any way to make the past right? It seems like all you can do is try to improve for the future. Reparations might just cause more resentment than it heals.

Here's an article about it Black Reparations (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I really want everybody's input on this. I'm throwing my opinion out there and I would like yours, even if you disagree with me. Obviously not everybody has the same experiences. I'm really just wondering what people think about this.
Human Rights Violations are the history of mankind. I offer that you understand it and work to prevent it by spreading capitalism and the wealth it creates as far, wide and deep as possible.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,757,647 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
I can't nor will attempt to speak about any other group other than American Indians. I can do this as I am one; however, it must be understood that this is ONE Comanche's opinion.

I don't know exactly what you mean when you say "reparations". Are you talking about some sort of individual payment or something of that nature? Would this be a one time or life long stipend? I don't know what that would do in the end other than create more dependency on the government. With that out of the way...

There is a BIG difference between American Indians and other "ethnic" people in the United States. Our Nations have treaties with the United States government. Article VI, paragraph 2, of the US Constitution makes treaties made under the authority of the United States the supreme law of the land on the same footing with acts of Congress. Yet, everyone of these treaties were broken by the United States. We still expect the US Government to honor those. Many of us cannot and will not forget it or "let it go". Call it reparations if you will, but we call it the supreme law of the land by the US Government's own words.
As bad as it is. What you are asking for will not happen anymore. To much time has passed that if those treaties were honored now, other inocent people that had nothing to do today would be affected and those that would get the benefits had nothing to do with it either by gaining something they never earned also. There is a point to me it is best to let go. In your case, how did those treaty violations centuries ago affect you now? How much of that has to do with your parents still keeping recentments when neither they were directly affected on what was shortchanged on their ancestors? Take care.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,119,050 times
Reputation: 2028
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
As bad as it is. What you are asking for will not happen anymore. To much time has passed that if those treaties were honored now, other inocent people that had nothing to do today would be affected and those that would get the benefits had nothing to do with it either by gaining something they never earned also. There is a point to me it is best to let go. In your case, how did those treaty violations centuries ago affect you now? How much of that has to do with your parents still keeping recentments when neither they were directly affected on what was shortchanged on their ancestors? Take care.
While I realize that getting lands back is unlikely, there are other provisions of those broken treaties that the government via "the supreme law of the land" should attend to and many of us continue to fight for those things which the government promised to provide in exchange for lands and removal to reservations. With only two million of us, we are not a great voting block so the government pretty much feels it's okay to ignore us, but we have to keep trying.

Indian people, particularly those on the reservations, live with that legacy everyday. The poor quality of food sent to the reservations are the number one contributor to high diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure rates among Indian people. Fry bread is not a traditional food. The high fat, high sugar and high calorie foods found in the commods are killing Indian people, yet it is these types of cheap food stuffs that have been provided since the reservations began.

The Indian Health Service (IHS) is a failure. While it is better than nothing, it is rife with inefficiencies, long waiting times for treatment (I knew people who have died waiting for treatment), shortages of medications, denial of certain treatments especially for the elderly and so on. Keep in mind this is for the roughly two million enrolled tribal members. This needs to be fixed and reformed.

The state of Indian education on reservations make inner city schools look like institutions of higher education. In these areas, providing the bare minimum of what those treaties stipulated is not keeping in what any reasonable person would consider what the spirit of the treaties was supposed to be.

All the while, Nations are still having to contend with the Federal government attempting to take Indian lands. Just last year, my Nation had to get into a protracted court battle to keep the US Army from taking Comanche land (what little we have left). This happens all over Indian country and is not unique to what Comanche Nation just dealt with.

You asked how those broken treaties affect Indian people today, well those are just a couple of examples.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Phx
175 posts, read 203,501 times
Reputation: 84
The Israeli’s got their land back after 2000 years so anything is possible. Then you could always get into the issue of reparations by other tribes that kept black and other Indian slaves. it could get quite messy.

As far as holding the US government being accountable for more recent agreements I am in total agreement. The people need to hold the government accountable!
 
Old 02-24-2011, 04:16 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,757,647 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
While I realize that getting lands back is unlikely, there are other provisions of those broken treaties that the government via "the supreme law of the land" should attend to and many of us continue to fight for those things which the government promised to provide in exchange for lands and removal to reservations. With only two million of us, we are not a great voting block so the government pretty much feels it's okay to ignore us, but we have to keep trying.

Indian people, particularly those on the reservations, live with that legacy everyday. The poor quality of food sent to the reservations are the number one contributor to high diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure rates among Indian people. Fry bread is not a traditional food. The high fat, high sugar and high calorie foods found in the commods are killing Indian people, yet it is these types of cheap food stuffs that have been provided since the reservations began.

The Indian Health Service (IHS) is a failure. While it is better than nothing, it is rife with inefficiencies, long waiting times for treatment (I knew people who have died waiting for treatment), shortages of medications, denial of certain treatments especially for the elderly and so on. Keep in mind this is for the roughly two million enrolled tribal members. This needs to be fixed and reformed.

The state of Indian education on reservations make inner city schools look like institutions of higher education. In these areas, providing the bare minimum of what those treaties stipulated is not keeping in what any reasonable person would consider what the spirit of the treaties was supposed to be.

All the while, Nations are still having to contend with the Federal government attempting to take Indian lands. Just last year, my Nation had to get into a protracted court battle to keep the US Army from taking Comanche land (what little we have left). This happens all over Indian country and is not unique to what Comanche Nation just dealt with.

You asked how those broken treaties affect Indian people today, well those are just a couple of examples.
You can do two things, either stay upset about those injustices or get up and take hold of your life. If you decide to keep insisting get the government keep its promise, fine. However, what you can also do as a group is find ways to get out of thoes problems you stated above. Frederick Douglas realized the situation his people were in. He could very well had maintained and attitude you may have a many others. He did not. Instead he built trade schools for his people to make sure they get out of the hole their were in. It was a start. I am of Mexican decent. Many people in Mexico believe the U.S. stole about on 1/3 of their country from them by force by arranging situation to take that land and keep the "Manifest Destiny" program going, take care.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 04:22 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,757,647 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docaholic View Post
The Israeliís got their land back after 2000 years so anything is possible. Then you could always get into the issue of reparations by other tribes that kept black and other Indian slaves. it could get quite messy.

As far as holding the US government being accountable for more recent agreements I am in total agreement. The people need to hold the government accountable!
You said the land was the Israeli's? Not really. Even the Bible acknowledged that God told them to take it by force from the people that lived there, correct?

According to the Bible God promised I believe Abraham he would give that land to his posterity, correct? So who in reality who took land from whom?

Of course we need to hold the government accountable but there is a point that that is not possible anymore because in many cases it just makes it worst by taking land away from other people that have homestead for so long. Is that right? After all the people that lost those territories are gone. The ones that would loose are living today and they had nothing to do with that, take care.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 04:26 PM
 
3,647 posts, read 9,315,314 times
Reputation: 5427
Troll thread.
 
Old 02-24-2011, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,119,050 times
Reputation: 2028
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
You can do two things, either stay upset about those injustices or get up and take hold of your life. If you decide to keep insisting get the government keep its promise, fine. However, what you can also do as a group is find ways to get out of thoes problems you stated above. Frederick Douglas realized the situation his people were in. He could very well had maintained and attitude you may have a many others. He did not. Instead he built trade schools for his people to make sure they get out of the hole their were in. It was a start. I am of Mexican decent. Many people in Mexico believe the U.S. stole about on 1/3 of their country from them by force by arranging situation to take that land and keep the "Manifest Destiny" program going, take care.
Many Nations are doing just what you said. My Nation started their own college, businesses (both casino and non-casino based) and have even started looking at tribal healthcare outside of the IHS. Comanche Nation has one of the most educated populations among all native nations. I, myself, possess a Masters degree in Computer Information Systems for example. This is all fine and good for a Nation like mine that is located near a metropolitan area (Lawton, OK).

There are, however, many Nations that are located on remote reservations or rural areas of states like Oklahoma that are far from the kind of infrastructure that a Nation closer to a city has access to. With limited resources, they especially, need the government to live up to its end of the bargain (as it were) as they build their own infrastructure. Those of us from other Nations need to stand beside them help them in their fight.

Last edited by Fullback32; 02-24-2011 at 07:53 PM..
 
Old 02-25-2011, 08:51 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,757,647 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fullback32 View Post
Many Nations are doing just what you said. My Nation started their own college, businesses (both casino and non-casino based) and have even started looking at tribal healthcare outside of the IHS. Comanche Nation has one of the most educated populations among all native nations. I, myself, possess a Masters degree in Computer Information Systems for example. This is all fine and good for a Nation like mine that is located near a metropolitan area (Lawton, OK).

There are, however, many Nations that are located on remote reservations or rural areas of states like Oklahoma that are far from the kind of infrastructure that a Nation closer to a city has access to. With limited resources, they especially, need the government to live up to its end of the bargain (as it were) as they build their own infrastructure. Those of us from other Nations need to stand beside them help them in their fight.
I truly do not want to come across as insensitive but I may, not my intent. However, at this time now after those generations affected are gone, I think there is nothing wrong with people go on in life without expecting reparations.
Example, you are aware there are lots of hispanic families that are decendants of the mexicans that lived in California, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, etc. that believe all those areas were taken away from Mexico by thei U.S. Was that right? Probably not. However, they as other groups will not gain anything to demand something that I truly believe is not going to happen. That is my point. I am not saying injustices did not happen. Our history has lot of examples of injustice on people. That is sad but the reality is that those demands to make up I personaly will not happen.

I will tell you what I have told other groups. There are so many groups that demand some type of reparations for different reasons. Some groups want the attention of the federal government. The other day I saw a list of group special interests groups. Wow! It is huge! You have groups on behalf or children, the elder, blacks, indians, women, education, doctors, religions, arts, and on and on. All want something.
The sad part about it is that there is only so much money on the pot. The government has to prioritize. Besides that, those groups that have more powerful voice will get the attention for what they want. Also, sadly, depending of the size of the group the attention seem to correlate also. How much effect does the plight of the indian nations affect the nation? To some people they may not see any effect on them and the nation. That is the true and sad reality.
What to do? Many groups simply make their lives better on their own. If necessary they may move somewhere where the think life can be better. In some of those nations I venture to guess some of the people simply have moved somewhere else to make it a better life. Indian in the past did the same, moved where they felt life was better in hunting deer, buffalo, and water availability. What is wrong with moving somewhere else where life is better? I am of Mexican decent. Do I stop being what I am because I do not live in Mexico. The U.S. is my home now. The same with thousands of latinos. Black, many were brought in by force to this nation. Many made this their home despite the injustices. Some are still clinging on to a victim attitude and to me those are the ones still behind. Many othere have moved on in making the American dream as they see fit. Your peers from other nations only hurt themselves by stubbornly staying where they are because of the past. They can still be proud of what they are regardless of where they live.

In communities you see people of German, Chineese, Mexican, African, etc. decent that have their ethnic festivities and live life to the fullest, take care.
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