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Old 02-25-2011, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,940 posts, read 18,504,037 times
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My opinion is that reparations should NOT be paid to the decendants of those who suffered from past atrocities, only those who directly suffered. If the victims are dead, they should be remembered, but paying off subsequent generations only strenthens the entitlement mentality that is strangling our country today.

 
Old 02-25-2011, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Phx
175 posts, read 203,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
You said the land was the Israeli's? Not really. Even the Bible acknowledged that God told them to take it by force from the people that lived there, correct?

According to the Bible God promised I believe Abraham he would give that land to his posterity, correct? So who in reality who took land from whom?
Not too many countries or lands that havent been conquered and reconquered throughout the ages. Jewish peoples claims to Israel were just an example. You could give the Indian tribes back their land in the US, and the Aztecs back their land in Mexico and central America, and Native Hawaiins back their land from white people and non Hawaiins! Could do this all the way back to the beginning of man kind!
 
Old 02-26-2011, 12:54 AM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,432 posts, read 16,743,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
I want reparations from Bill Gates for traumatic stress disorder related to the atrocity of Windows Vista.
LOL Demand a free upgrade to Windows 7
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:16 AM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,432 posts, read 16,743,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
My opinion is that reparations should NOT be paid to the decendants of those who suffered from past atrocities, only those who directly suffered. If the victims are dead, they should be remembered, but paying off subsequent generations only strenthens the entitlement mentality that is strangling our country today.
I could see payments to children of those who weren't there to raise them or spouses or parents, but two or three generations is a bit of a stretch. I don't buy the idea that as someone who descends from families who held slaves I should feel guilt over it. I didn't, my parents didn't. Nor do I owe anyone money in payment from past ancestors. At some point you have to acknowledge a wrong was made and go on.

But my mom held very strong feelings about rights. She was taught this my her mother who's mother was born when the family were slave holders. My dad refuses to go back to his family in Alabama since he didn't wish to show any support for the state policies during integration. He didn't go see his family until Wallace was no longer governer because he was ashamed of the man. Maybe their grandparents or back were part of the system but my parents did not follow in their footsteps. That is the most meaningful sort of payback.

There is nothing wrong with fully exploring the ways our nation has acted in the past and in fact its a reminder to the present generations that we are just as human as anyone else. But it should not be looked at in the shiny glow that the Native cultures tend to now, all peace and goodness. A friend of mine who is native is really bothered by that since native cultures were not all nobel and good. Nor should we look at the past with the same judgements we hold today. We can say it was wrong from our perspective. But living in the world your born effects your perceptions, and if you don't make all the same moral judgements as someone will a century and a half later it is not the same. We can look back and say whatever we want, but fast forward a hundred years and see what judgement has been made on us. I'm sure our history in the last century will not be seen quite as we see it.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 10:27 AM
 
8,699 posts, read 6,369,483 times
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How about this scenario? Our country continues to amass trillions of debt to maximize economic output and prop up our standard of living a bit longer. Debt is simply a claim against future earnings and when the government amasses debt it’s a claim against future earnings of its citizens, many of whom may not be born yet or are too young to in anyway be held personally responsible for the profligate accruing of the debt. Hence, the sins of the father will be passed on to the sons and daughters. (See Blue post script at bottom).

What people need to realize is that government liabilities and assets are the responsibility of all citizens. People need to get a new argument when they attempt to exempt themselves from government liabilities, because it is an argument without the benefit and or use of intellect and knowledge. Furthermore, the argument is highly hypocritical and when people are not willing to have consistent principles, they are demonstrating bias. One cannot have selective principles and not have an unbiased position. If ones position is biased, then it discredits the messenger, if not the message as well.

We have all heard the analogy that the son or grandson should not be held responsible for the sins of the father. However, how often do we hear people argue that the son or grandson should get no wealth from the father or Grandfather? People do not have a problem rationalizing the acceptance of assets and wealth from those same ancestors, which they did not create, but ask them to accept the liabilities and they will quickly tell you that they had no role in creating them. You cannot find a better example of hypocricy. There are trillions in wealth passed from generation to generation and I have yet to here on any forum someone arguing that they have no right to the land or home or stocks, ect, that their grand parents passed to them, despite them playing no role in creating those assets. In principle, if not law, if you can rationalize accepting one then you have set the precedent for getting things in the past that you are not responsible for.


How many of you have actually fought in a war or did anything to secure the freedoms you enjoy today and take for granted? Don’t you know that the rights and freedoms you have today, which you took no part in creating, is the result of the actions of people in the past? The country does not require you to recreate the freedom for each subsequent generation by forcing you to make the same sacrifice; rather, it just bestows those rights and freedom upon you as a benefit accrued to you from the past sacrifices of others. In other the words, if the son can rationalize and get the benefits of his father’s good deeds why should not the son also be liable for his father’s bad deeds, as a manner of principle?

Citizenship is an inheritance. When one becomes a citizen they inherit the assets and liabilities of a nation. People immigrating to this nation and becoming citizens cannot argue that they should not be taxed or burdened for things that happened before they got here. If Singwo Mwali came to America and argued what he should not have to pay for because he was not here to create those debts……..you would immediately tell him that if he feels that way then he should leave the country. Well……then many of you should leave the country to for making the same personal responsibility argument.

When one becomes a citizen they inherit the assets and liabilities of the nation, regardless of personal responsibility or role in creating any of those assets or liabilities. The nation does not give citizens the opportunity to choose, because of course everyone would take the assets and few would volunteer to take the liabilities. Thus, it’s a package deal. However, I don’t have to tell anyone this. This is basic civics. You know this! When intelligent people act dumb, they are attempting to hide something or avoid something. When intelligent people have to be explained things that should be common knowledge, they really cannot be trusted because for some reason TRUTH is working against their self interest. When TRUTH is not working in favor of one’s personal interest then one’s personal interest is likely unrighteous.

Reparation is not about the sins of the father, it’s about the sins of the nation. It’s about the liabilities this nation created in setting up a legal structure that allowed for the enslavement and oppression of a group of people based upon their race. Since all actions create reactions and the present is the creation of the past, one can be sure that African Americans are still suffering the ramifications of that past, notwithstanding the end of legal discrimination.

PS

Its interesting that many conservative people argue that their children and grand children could be adversly impacted and have a reduced quality and standard of living for things that go on today. Yet, many of these same people vehemetly reject the argument that black people could be adversly impacted today by things that went on when they were not even alive. It appears that whites can be impacted adversly by the past......but not blacks. If blacks should be expected to rise above all condition that manifested in the past, then why don't people have the same expectation for their children and grand children, regardless of the debt and burden that are passed on from behavior today?

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-26-2011 at 11:31 AM..
 
Old 02-26-2011, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,126,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
But it should not be looked at in the shiny glow that the Native cultures tend to now, all peace and goodness. A friend of mine who is native is really bothered by that since native cultures were not all nobel and good.
The whole "noble savage" thing is a construct of white men (fiction writers, movie makers, NewAgers and some anthropologists) and I agree with your statement 100%. We Comanches have no illusions as to who and what we were and are. Many has been the NewAger wannabe twinkie who has come around our people and are highly disappointed because we do not fit their glorified and mystical image of Indian people. In essence what I am saying is that I am in agreement with your friend. This false image in no way should be the basis of why the US Government should do what they obliged themselves to.

I go back to the concept that the US government created certain legal obligations to the different Nations via treaties and, per the Constitution, those being the "supreme law of the land." The 500 sovereign Nations have a legal relationship with the United States government and work with the US government via the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) and through the individual tribal governments. It is reasonable from a legal aspect for the Nations to expect the US government to live up to their end of the bargain. Lastly, when you consider the millions or billions of dollars that are sent to foreign countries every year, it is unconscionable that the government provides the bare minimum to the very Nations they themselves created legal obligations to.

Last edited by Fullback32; 02-26-2011 at 01:49 PM..
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Phx
175 posts, read 203,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Reparation is not about the sins of the father, itís about the sins of the nation. Itís about the liabilities this nation created in setting up a legal structure that allowed for the enslavement and oppression of a group of people based upon their race. Since all actions create reactions and the present is the creation of the past, one can be sure that African Americans are still suffering the ramifications of that past, notwithstanding the end of legal discrimination.
This logic can be applied too half of the worlds population who have been enslaved, systamitically killed and discrimated against; Jews in Germany, Non-Japanese in Japan, Kurds in the Middle east, currently enslaved people in Africa. Maybe we should go back more than 150 years, maybe we should go back 500 or a 1000 years. My point is, it is so subjective it will never happen.
What about mixed people..In the case my cousin who has a "White mom" and "Black dad"; Maybe his white half will have to pay his black half reparations. As things progress in this country and we have a greater mixed population who will be acceptated as an American who happens to have lineage down multiple ethnic lines the reparation issue will be moot. This mixing is happening so often these days, race as a primary identifier will be gone before you know it. I can hardly wait for this to happen!
 
Old 02-26-2011, 01:19 PM
 
8,699 posts, read 6,369,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docaholic View Post
This logic can be applied too half of the worlds population who have been enslaved, systamitically killed and discrimated against; Jews in Germany, Non-Japanese in Japan, Kurds in the Middle east, currently enslaved people in Africa. Maybe we should go back more than 150 years, maybe we should go back 500 or a 1000 years. My point is, it is so subjective it will never happen.
What about mixed people..In the case my cousin who has a "White mom" and "Black dad"; Maybe his white half will have to pay his black half reparations. As things progress in this country and we have a greater mixed population who will be acceptated as an American who happens to have lineage down multiple ethnic lines the reparation issue will be moot. This mixing is happening so often these days, race as a primary identifier will be gone before you know it. I can hardly wait for this to happen!
Well, if two people have grounds to file suit the validity of the individual suits are not predicated upon whether all parties wronged files suit. What you seem to be saying is that reparations is an invalid idea because other wronged peoples have not filed suit, yet, the validity and morality of the claim is in no way dependent upon who did and who did not file a claim. Its the individual merits of each claim, not who did not file claim or could follow suit.

That having been said, most oppressed people that you are referring to migrated from the regimes and countries of their oppression. They don’t exist among the people and government which facilitated their oppression, as is the case of African Americans. Of course, some will say that America paid the debt by ending the acts of oppression such as slavery and Jim Crow. However, that would be like a rapist arguing that ending the rape (after they climaxed) offsets them starting the rape.

Granted, this country will never pay reparations because, frankly, white Americans have NEVER (as a collective) been contemporary in recognizing how they wrong and inhibit black people. White people can only see the wrongs of past white people, not themselves. That is the case today, that was the case 50 years ago and that was the case 100 years ago and in 50 years whites will be looking back at contemporary whites and seeing your behavior and attitudes towards black different than whites see it today. The behavior and attitudes of whites has consistently resulted in the creation or maintenance of socioeconomic racial inequality. Aside from the inertia of white America is the fact that there is simply no money to pay reparation. However, even if there was more than enough money, it would not happen for the reason I stated a few sentences back.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-26-2011 at 02:09 PM..
 
Old 02-26-2011, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Phx
175 posts, read 203,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post

That having been said, most oppressed people that you are referring to migrated from the regimes and countries of their oppression. They don’t exist among the people and government which facilitated their oppression, as is the case of African Americans. Of course, some will say that America paid the debt by ending the acts of oppression such as slavery and Jim Crow. However, that would be like a rapist arguing that ending the rape (after they climaxed) offsets them starting the rape.
.
The rape argument would only be applicable if it actually happen to someone who currently was alive not something from 150 years ago. I could see this making sense for some countries that still foster slavery. But if you want to include something that happened 150 years ago, whats to say the you cant go further back in the past..Ive been using Jews and Egypt as an example if you want to go way back!

Anyway, in 50 years the norm will be mixed race or at the very least having a brother in law, step parent are cousin of another race. I already do and I'm fine with it and so are they! Eventually People in this country will be washed out to the point of not having a single racial identity and the argument will only be academic.
 
Old 02-26-2011, 07:54 PM
 
8,699 posts, read 6,369,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docaholic View Post
The rape argument would only be applicable if it actually happen to someone who currently was alive not something from 150 years ago. I could see this making sense for some countries that still foster slavery. But if you want to include something that happened 150 years ago, whats to say the you cant go further back in the past..Ive been using Jews and Egypt as an example if you want to go way back!

Anyway, in 50 years the norm will be mixed race or at the very least having a brother in law, step parent are cousin of another race. I already do and I'm fine with it and so are they! Eventually People in this country will be washed out to the point of not having a single racial identity and the argument will only be academic.
If this was politics your strategy would be called a filibuster. Humanity is a continuum. Countries are also a continuum from the day they claim to be a nation. When countries oppress a people within it, there is no reset. In other words, the only way the people reset is if they produced no offspring to inherit their socioeconomic displacement resulting from their oppression.

Implicit in the argument many people make, including the argument you seem to be making, is the assumption that every generation gets a fresh start independent of their parent’s socioeconomic conditions. You said that the rape analogy would only be applicable if it happened to someone currently alive. Well....it did. The two entities involved in the rape were a country (the USA) and the people (one of the people) it raped, in this case African Americans. Neither has died out and neither have the ramifications of the rape.

Again, I point to the vocalized fears of many that the spending of the government, if not controlled, is going to have a terrible detrimental impact upon future generations standard of living and quality of life. Again, your argument says this cannot ever be true. How can that be true and it also be true that African Americans can only be impacted if they were alive during the offense. If that is true then nothing that the government or people do today should impact your children or grand children, many of whom are not even alive today. Fifty years from now when your children and grand children are living much poorer than you today....will it be valid that there fate was in large part the result of things that were manifesting when they were not even alive...or just children?

You don't believe that for a minute when it’s your children and grand children that will be burdened. However, people keep implying that blacks ONLY have valid claims of impact if they were living when the offenses were taking place. In other words, actions produce reactions that transcend time and space for whites (when you worry about how today will impact your grand children), but the reaction to centuries of racial oppression does not transcend time and space for blacks. It’s a totally hypocritical and hence untenable position that no intelligent person should forward with a straight face, unless their intelligence is constipated by a diet of denial and or prejudice.

Black oppression never really ended in America. What ended was slavery, 148 years ago and Jim Crow (America’s apartheid) which ended 47 years ago. These junctures represent the removal of the legalization of these acts, however, if one believes that laws ended discrimination against blacks then one must also believe, by the same logic, that there is no crime in America....because there are laws against crime also. Again, everyone knows there is crime in America despite laws and everyone should also know that people did not stop discriminating just because laws passed against it. So the oppression is not past tense....it just never ended. So the 150 year ago argument would imply that the oppression ended 150 years ago, which is not true. Every argument against reparations can be proved hypocritical.

Of course, the goal is to find any way to discredit the argument for reparations. Why? The issue here is the validity of contemporary reverberations upon the black collective, if not each black individual, from past oppression facilitated by the government through its laws and practices. What happened between Jews while in Egypt or Germany or what happened to the Irish in their relationship with Britain or what happened to the Chinese at Nanjing by the Japanese or any other oppression or atrocity is immaterial to the merits of the claims being made in America. Whatever group does or does not do or did not and will not is simply obfuscation, misdirection and filibuster.

In 50 years, at the rate of natural resource depletion, the growth in global population and the spread of nuclear weapons....... civilization might not even be here. It’s simply a cop out to hope the problem will go away through miscegenation. What’s more likely to happen, based upon birth rates, is that the white population will take a radical drop globally. If it was not for the fact that people are living much longer you would have already witnessed a massive decline in the white population in America and the world. Black people will be here for a long time because we have a high fertility rate. So if the world does not end, don't count on not having a lot of black people around as the solution to this problem.

The strategy of each generation of white Americans is to only aknowlge wrongs AFTER THE FACT and after the people of the era, victims and victimizers, are all dead. Then they can say "well it was wrong....but all the people are dead now and there is nothing that can or should be done". Now you are waiting for the day that black people "blend out of existance", instead of dealing with the issue while they exist. I can only imagine that in 50 years the world you envision of one race of peope, then, and only then will people admit that something should have been done for blacks.......but its to late because we cannot even tell who is black anymore.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-26-2011 at 08:12 PM..
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