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Old 02-26-2011, 07:33 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,330 posts, read 19,016,992 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
My opinion is that reparations should NOT be paid to the decendants of those who suffered from past atrocities, only those who directly suffered. If the victims are dead, they should be remembered, but paying off subsequent generations only strenthens the entitlement mentality that is strangling our country today.
I disagree. If subsequent generations of the PERPETRATORS have benefited from the atrocities of their ancestors while subsequent generations of the victims are disadvantaged, then some mechanism must be put in place to level the field and remove the inequity. Subsequent generations of the perpetrators enjoy an UNEARNED PRIVILEGE and this must be removed.

If the atrocity happened and subsequent generations on BOTH sides were unaffected, with NEITHER given an advantage, then your view would stand correct. But it is a grossly inferior position that ignores the reality, one conveniently embraced by Conservatives. We want to level the field, so that subsequent generations of the victims are made whole and not forced to struggle through life from a lesser vantage point.

What is strangling our country today and at least the last four centuries is the preservation of the unearned privilege, not the "entitlement mentality" as Conservatives like to put it. Those with such a privilege must be forced to give it up because it is undeserving and detrimental to other minority groups who deserve equal treatment. IMO, any other view is bigoted, absurd, misguided, and plain wrong.

 
Old 02-26-2011, 11:16 PM
 
1,214 posts, read 1,650,211 times
Reputation: 880
Default Here's a reparation - Get off your butt and do a day's work

Read the real history of events - LINK Any decent freaking library

When the Europeans came to the Americas - There was a miniscule population here, and plenty of land...But the evil squatters of the lands (Native Americans) had a nasty habit of stealig from everyone else, and even butchering them. Which they did to the European Americans.

Of course "progessive" history calls the acts of the Native Americans "Traditional mutilations", yet when the europeans retailiated in the same fashion, they were called "Butchers".

It just seems (especially with today's standards) that the Native Americans were just too damned greedy with sharing the vast lands here.

Of course they are defended by the liberal mentaliity as just trying to continue with their traditional lifestyle...of owning everything and anything they wanted...no matter how barbaric their means were.

Whereas, if the residents of today want to control immigration - well we're just "xenophobic" (mentally ill with racism).

Then came slaves from all over the world...not just Africa, there were all types if indentured servants with no rights.

And even until very recently, there were all types of people, including whites, that were coming to this country, excaping literal slavery.

So, after the Civil War, the slaves were freed, and there were monies and even lands given to many of them (read the real history).

And that is why that even to this day, there are still African American farm owners (that did work their lands). Whereas, quite a few of the African Americans took the then reparations, and moved to the large cities to find their fortunes (Chicago, New York, etc. etc.)

But, there where hustlers of all types waiting for them (including other African Americans). And many soon lost their farms and their money in the big cities.

Many of the Native Americans were also given money...And they spent it like wildfire.

And all during the 20th century, especially the 2nd half, the USA spent hundreds of billions of dollars on housing, income supplements (welfare), education, health care and whatever else you can imagine....(add up what was spent over the years).

And all of it was wasted on corrupt and outright silly programs. And all types benefitted from this - Including corrupt African Americans and Native Americans...who were much closer to those with the money - weren't they?

Then the idea that de-segragating the schools would solve the problem....But, it didn't - it just dragged down the whole system.

It seems that the progressive minds of today do not have the courage to simply tell the truth - To succeed, you have to marry (and have children) with a partner that is reliable, and you have to wake up every morning and get to work on time...And Monday is not another day in the weekend to recuperate.

The real truth is if everyone wanted to improve the lot of every group, we would simply tear down the ghettos and reservations, and simply distribute the minoriy population throughout the towns and cities...Giving them equal and decent housing in every street in every neighborhood.

It certainly would not change any areas at all - Between the African Americans and Native Americans, they represent probably about 20% of the population. So every street that has 40 houses would have 8 minority families....That's not going to change any area much.

But, the ones that would have a real problem with this true integration, would be the black leaders and fanatical progressives, as they would soon realize that everyone woud adopt a common set of values...There would be no more African American Communities...People would be voting on a politician's values to their own neghborhoods (that would be pretty much like all the integrated areas). Their would be no more special interest issues, other than what truly benefits entire communities.

Reparations is just another handout to do-nothings, to buy more time for them....What happens when they lose the money to today's hucksters?...We'll be watching the misery build up again for another 30 years, and try to sell the same sob-story to the next generation...
 
Old 02-27-2011, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
3,334 posts, read 5,115,010 times
Reputation: 2028
Quote:
Originally Posted by migee View Post
Here's a reparation - Get off your butt and do a day's work
Let me reduce your tirade to the stupidity above (which you wrote BTW). Just what the hell makes you think we don't? Are you one of those people who thinks we're all drunks hanging 'round the rez? Did you know that not all Nations even have a rez? All the Oklahoma Nations that had reservations in what used to be called "Indian Territory" had their reservations dissolved by 1907. So for a lot of Indian people, your idea of "tearing down the reservations" has already been done in Oklahoma a long time ago, yet we survive despite that. Of the two million enrolled American Indians, only 800,000 live on actual reservations.

To further destroy this f'd up image you seem to have of Indian people, the Comanche Nation is among the most educated of all American Indian Nations. I, for example, served 20 years in the USAF including service in Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom. I have a Masters degree, and now work as an senior engineer for a major defense contractor and have a nice standard of living. Just for the record, I nor my children receive any "benefits" from being enrolled in our Nation. We do not need them and therefore have never applied for them. They do not come automatically BTW. Indians all over this country have "gotten off our butts and done a days work."

I'll also remind you that American Indians have highest record of military service per capita of all the ethnic groups in America including whites. Even during the turbulent times of Vietnam, while whites and others were either drafted, trying to avoid the draft or protesting in the streets, 90% of all American Indians to serve in Vietnam were VOLUNTEERS. How's that for a day's work?

Yes we work and already live among you. But there are others (especially those who live on remote reservations) who who still need the government to honor the legal obligations they themselves incurred. Ever been to a rez? Ever seen how things are there? Ever been in a situation where there is NOTHING and no hope? Bet you haven't. It's just so easy for some people to say "get a job" to people who live in areas where there are no jobs or say "move" to people who have no means or resources to do so, isn't it?

Back to the whole termination of tribes thing. The dissolving of rez's and relocation of the people to cities in order integrate them into "mainstream America" has already been tried. This was US policy from the 1940s to the 1970s. During this period, 109 tribes were terminated, approximately 1,360,000 acres of trust land were removed from protected status (which,of course, is the real reason they did it) and thousands of American Indians lost tribal affiliation, which went far in furthering the destruction of those cultures. Those confiscated tribal lands were converted to private ownership to whites and NOT the former tribal members from who those lands were taken. Wow, what were the chances of that? And just so you know, my tribe fought a land grab by the government just a couple of years ago. Oh, you thought the land grabs ended in the 1890s didn't you?

What were the effects of this? Just to give you an example of how effective this very policy you advocate was, I will mention its effects on the Klamath Nation.

In the 1950s, the Klamath Nation was one of the strongest and most wealthy tribes in the nation. They had created a vigorous economy with timber resources and imported livestock that almost fully supported the entire tribe. The Klamath tribe was no burden on the taxpayers of the state of Oregon and was the only tribe in the country paying their share of BIA administrative costs. But through the constant pressure of Senator Arthur Watkins in Congress, the Klamath was terminated in 1961.

Within the tribe, termination had been supported only by a few who were loyal to Sen. Watkins. After being terminated, the tribe was cut off from services for education, health care, housing and related resources. Termination directly caused decay within the tribe including poverty, alcoholism, high suicide rates, low educational achievement, disintegration of the family, poor housing, high dropout rates from school, disproportionate numbers in penal institutions, increased infant mortality, decreased life expectancy and more. But through the leadership and vision of the Klamath people and the assistance of a few congressional leaders, the Klamath Restoration Act was adopted into law in 1986, reestablishing the Klamath as a sovereign state and they are still recovering from their termination.

The effects of the very policy you advocated in your diatribe devastated the Nations tribes that were terminated and everyone is paying the price for it.

I will agree with you one statement you made. You alluded to corrupt tribal leaders. Yes, there are some and these dogs have sold out their own peoples to their masters in Washington. In some Nations, they are a serious problem.

I will say one last time and maybe this time some of you may understand. Indian people are not asking for "reparations" but rather that the US government honor what they already legally obliged themselves to.

Last edited by Fullback32; 02-27-2011 at 01:38 AM..
 
Old 02-27-2011, 02:27 AM
 
2,243 posts, read 3,447,233 times
Reputation: 2118
Given everything Whites have brought to this planet (open a typical encyclopedia -- we've invented just about everything that has been invented) I say White people are exempted from paying reparations to anybody. Everything we've given this planet by far outweighs any so-called "atrocities" we've allegedly committed, both real and imagined.

Enjoy hot and cold running water on demand, paved roads, automobiles, electronics, representative government, scientific method, beautiful art, beautiful literature, modern medicine, etc.? You're welcome...the end.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 03:28 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
14,330 posts, read 19,016,992 times
Reputation: 18436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
Given everything Whites have brought to this planet (open a typical encyclopedia -- we've invented just about everything that has been invented) I say White people are exempted from paying reparations to anybody. Everything we've given this planet by far outweighs any so-called "atrocities" we've allegedly committed, both real and imagined.

Enjoy hot and cold running water on demand, paved roads, automobiles, electronics, representative government, scientific method, beautiful art, beautiful literature, modern medicine, etc.? You're welcome...the end.
Yes, that unearned privilege does afford many whites a measure of indifference, however, the gains by whites were ill-gotten, and of course credit skewed to favor whites by whites. History should be rewritten and corrected. Your position is laughable indeed. I remember growing up watching cowboy movies. The cowboys of course were all white and they were heroes. The indians were savages and lost just about every confrontation with the cowboys. I remember rooting for the cowboys. Later I began rooting for the indians. The indians were another proud, dignified, magnificent people and they were decimated. Cowboys were intruding on their land. Indians certainly deserving of reparations without question. I also remember talk of heavyweight boxer Gene Tunney. He beat the great Jack Dempsey and was considered one of the greatest heavyweight champions of any generation. Left out of this was the fact that Tunney refused to fight black fighters. The fear was jusitified. He was considered great, but if had developed the courage to face a black fighter, he would've been annihilated. The protection he enjoyed because of that unearned privilege obliterated by reality on a level playing field.

I support reparations. They are necessary to right the mind-boggling wrong that was done to a magnificent people, black people. Without question, this is right. Black people must be made whole. After all, these wrongs placed whites at an advantage implying the false notion that whites are superior. For example, every corporation that has thrived and benefited from the unearned privilege must give up over half of its control to qualified black people. This would stop the practice of whites hiring only whites, whites promoting only whites, whites discriminating against brilliant, qualified blacks, and the perpetuation of the "good ol boy network." Same goes for education. For centuries, blacks were denied admission while whites where customarily admitted to assume roles without competition: Doctors, lawyers, businessmen, politicians, and so forth. Unearned privilege. College education should be free for blacks. Those who have already earned their degree should be made into multi-millionaires. After all, had their ancestors not been subjugated, this would be the reality. As a dignified, talented, dynamic people of great resolve, the current lot of blacks would be equal to or greater than that of whites, had the shameful atrocities and subjugation not occurred.

Again, black people are a magnificent people and should be embraced. A race that gains an advantage by treachery, deceit, and evil reeks of inferiority by clinging to an unearned privilege. A great people do not work to keep another down unless he deeply fears that the potential, power, and magnificence of that subjugated race surpasses his own. This fear of being surpassed drives the Conservative movement. They deny opportunity at every turn and pretend that the residual effect of past wrongs and unearned privilege is not realized in the form of continued bigotry and prejudice against blacks. Quite the shame.

Reparations? You bet. We as a society must right this shameful wrong. Interesting that blacks enjoy the superior moral position here.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:05 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,709,520 times
Reputation: 10450
Is there any place on Earth where an atrocity hasn't been committed? Every society in the world would be reduced to paying money to the families of such victims; it would simply never end. (Of course, it wouldn't actually be every society--just the United States, since I don't think this comes up too often elsewhere in the world).
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:46 AM
 
2,138 posts, read 4,618,345 times
Reputation: 3146
I (as a white man) would be in favor of giving every minority 5,000 dollars in reparations. But in exchange I want the ability to end all affirmative action programs, completely disband the EEOC, same with the Equal Housing laws. Let us (whites) live where we want, work with who we want, and not let certain people in if we want.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 04:51 AM
 
8,792 posts, read 9,617,809 times
Reputation: 6677
you don't get paid for being on the wrong side of history
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:39 AM
 
8,662 posts, read 6,336,743 times
Reputation: 3761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visit a Library View Post
Given everything Whites have brought to this planet (open a typical encyclopedia -- we've invented just about everything that has been invented) I say White people are exempted from paying reparations to anybody. Everything we've given this planet by far outweighs any so-called "atrocities" we've allegedly committed, both real and imagined.

Enjoy hot and cold running water on demand, paved roads, automobiles, electronics, representative government, scientific method, beautiful art, beautiful literature, modern medicine, etc.? You're welcome...the end.
The flip side to that is that when the earth is destroyed it will also llkely be due to the things the white man gave us. You see....progress is an illusion in physics of essentially closed systems. Its a zero sum game. Hence, what we see as progress is getting the benefit of something before suffering the cost, for to get something something must be given up. Yes, whites have advanced science, but now we live in fear of destruction from the science you created, as well as, environmental resource deprivation. Hence, there will be great suffering in the future that will offset the great pleasures and comfort created from that science.

Again, what whites do not see is that contemporary whites can only see wrong in past whites....and not themselves. Whites 50 years ago and 100 years ago and 200 years ago never seen their behavior as a problem for anyone else. Whatever the generation or whatever the century, whites never have seen themselves AS THE PROBLEM and have ALWAYS rationalized the problems to be others. 2011 is no different and the problem of whites today will not be admitted by whites until enough time has past where the next generation of whites will not have to assume any responsibiliites for it.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-27-2011 at 06:52 AM..
 
Old 02-27-2011, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Rogers, AR
481 posts, read 807,735 times
Reputation: 391
Quote:
Originally Posted by YaFace View Post
I (as a white man) would be in favor of giving every minority 5,000 dollars in reparations. But in exchange I want the ability to end all affirmative action programs, completely disband the EEOC, same with the Equal Housing laws. Let us (whites) live where we want, work with who we want, and not let certain people in if we want.
Considering White Women have benefitted from Affrimative Action more then anyone, I find your post a bit funny.
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