Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm sorry for all the losses expressed here...watching a loved one die a slow and painful death is one of the hardest (if not THE hardest) things we ever have to go through. The suffering itself is more difficult than the saying goodbye...by the end I was no longer praying for him to stay with me, but for his pain to end, and for his spirit to be free. It was a gift to have been there, holding his hand, at home instead of in a hospital, when he crossed over. As hard as it was, it was a gift.
The most important thing that stands out throughout this entire thread to me is that every family should sit down and communicate about these things so there will be no guesswork if tragedy and/or terminal illness strikes. Imagine being in a car accident and your family forcing you to remain in a coma for 30 years and all you want is to leave that place of limbo and be totally free? If you had signed something stating that you didn't want to be kept alive artificially, you would be free...but because you didn't, and because your family feels guilty about pulling that plug because you never communicated to them that you wouldn't want the heroics, in limbo you stay...imagine the hardship of your family...the guilt, the second-guessing, the arguments between them about what to do or not to do...it can all be avoided with open, honest communication.
Like Padgett2 has done, my mom and I have clearly communicated our wishes to each other about these things...we both feel that if there were going to be extreme complications like brain damage, comas that drag on for years, lifelong pain with little to no quality of life, etc.,...then no heroics. It may sound morbid, but we even know what arrangements we want in the event of our deaths...mom has already picked out the casket she prefers and already has a plot paid for right next to my dad's, and she knows I want to be cremated, where I want some of my ashes scattered and that I want the remainder to be buried next to my parents' plots. It makes it so much easier to deal with the grief and sadness of a loss when you don't have to make these decisions...we realized that by expressing these wishes clearly to each other and putting them in writing, we were giving each other a priceless gift...the gift of not having to second-guess a beloved spirit's wishes for the ritual that honors their life and marks the beginning of another important journey.
Comparing animals to humans is like comparing a peanut to a watermelon. That's an unfair comparison. In your example of a person requesting to have their feeding tube removed to me that's ok. They are making a choice, they have the right to do that. BTW, starvation is a painful way to die.
Also, while it is a doctor's duties to try and prevent pain and suffering it's not their right to play god and who should die either. Religion does factor in a persons moral make up. But not eveyone who is against euthanasia is religious. They just have their own opinions about what's right and wrong.
Well, this goes against what Hospice told us. Were they lying?
My dad went this way and it pains me. He should have just been put to sleep as his death was inevitable, anyway.
IT'S ALWAYS THE INDIVIDUALS CHOICE! I HAVEN'T CONTRADICTED MYSELF; I'VE SAID, OFTEN TIMES WHEN TERMINALLY ILL PATIENTS REACH THE POINT OF FEEDING TUBE REMOVAL TO INITIATE THE END OF LIFE PROCESS, IT'S OFTEN THE FAMILY WHO DECIDES AT THAT POINT! Having the family decide is never a good choice, and not even simply for the possibilty of misuse - for instance, deciding to remove a parent or childs feeding tube is an enormous burden on the psyche; something no one should have to face.
The Terri Schiavo case is a difficult argument. She was on life support from 1990 until 2005 - 15 years. They didn't want to euthanize her the wanted to "pull the plug on her". She eventually received a court order to remove her feeding tubes and she starved to death - the same techniqued sanctioned by nazi doctors.
If they had euthanized her, they would have injected her and she would have went to sleep - painlessly and quickly.
OBVIOUSLY, I do not mean euthanasia is a choice anytime a feeding tube is used. That statement is silly.
OK, we are repeating ourselves now. You're still saying the same thing and I can't tell if you think the family members have the right to make that choice. Removing the feeding tube is the same as pulling the plug. The outcome of both actions are the same (you say as much in your post). Let me be clear on what I'm saying, if the ill person has not signed a living will giving permission to the family members to do this, it shouldn't be done. However, I will agree with you on one condition, and that's if the person is brain dead. But I can't see any other condition that would dictate such a drastic move.
I have a living will, I have one not because I'm super responsible but because I had to. I want my wishes followed period. I know for a fact that my mother would NEVER have wanted to have us pull the plug. Despite the fact that towards the end, every day a new organ failed. But we knew her well enough to know that she what she wanted, but if you've never asked the person, you don't know. So despite how hard it is on you to see them that way, you should do nothing.
BTW, here's what you've said about feeding tubes: "If a feeding tube is used, the patient is in or near a vegetative state."
I agree, that statement is silly. But again, you seem to talk in circles. Take a stand, can the family make this decision on their own or not. You don't have to agree with me, just be clear.
I doubt that most people are aware of what can be done to extend life.....or perhaps I should say, postpone death. Some things are truly horrible, but the person continues to live. Is this what you would want for yourself?
I am thinking of a family where the father was being kept alive and his condition deeply disturbed his son. The son knew his father well enough to know that he would not want this sort of treatment. BUT, the son didn't know how to appoarch his mother about "pulling the plug." He thought that she would think that he didn't love his father. Finally he was talked into just saying that it was time to let his father go. She broke down and cried because she was afraid that the son would think the same thing of her. She had been wanting to call an end to it for months.
This is why it is so important for everyone in the family to understand how you feel. It's something that needs to be discussed.
Doctors have no choice in the matter if the family does not speak. They have an obligation to do what they can to prolong life. With today's medical know-how, that means postponing death. Life has already ended, Only the body still exists.
I'm sorry for all the losses expressed here...watching a loved one die a slow and painful death is one of the hardest (if not THE hardest) things we ever have to go through. The suffering itself is more difficult than the saying goodbye...by the end I was no longer praying for him to stay with me, but for his pain to end, and for his spirit to be free. It was a gift to have been there, holding his hand, at home instead of in a hospital, when he crossed over. As hard as it was, it was a gift.
The most important thing that stands out throughout this entire thread to me is that every family should sit down and communicate about these things so there will be no guesswork if tragedy and/or terminal illness strikes. Imagine being in a car accident and your family forcing you to remain in a coma for 30 years and all you want is to leave that place of limbo and be totally free? If you had signed something stating that you didn't want to be kept alive artificially, you would be free...but because you didn't, and because your family feels guilty about pulling that plug because you never communicated to them that you wouldn't want the heroics, in limbo you stay...imagine the hardship of your family...the guilt, the second-guessing, the arguments between them about what to do or not to do...it can all be avoided with open, honest communication.
Like Padgett2 has done, my mom and I have clearly communicated our wishes to each other about these things...we both feel that if there were going to be extreme complications like brain damage, comas that drag on for years, lifelong pain with little to no quality of life, etc.,...then no heroics. It may sound morbid, but we even know what arrangements we want in the event of our deaths...mom has already picked out the casket she prefers and already has a plot paid for right next to my dad's, and she knows I want to be cremated, where I want some of my ashes scattered and that I want the remainder to be buried next to my parents' plots. It makes it so much easier to deal with the grief and sadness of a loss when you don't have to make these decisions...we realized that by expressing these wishes clearly to each other and putting them in writing, we were giving each other a priceless gift...the gift of not having to second-guess a beloved spirit's wishes for the ritual that honors their life and marks the beginning of another important journey.
Again, I agree 100%. You have, what some seem to lack - common sense. A physicians duty is about quality of life AND quality of death. Death is an integral part of life; despite being difficult to deal with, especially regarding a loved one.
Quote:
Well, this goes against what Hospice told us. Were they lying?
My dad went this way and it pains me. He should have just been put to sleep as his death was inevitable, anyway.
It's difficult to say since no one can describe the experience of starving/dehydrating to death. In most hospice setting patients are essentially overdosed with morphine/oxy's, and certain other medications (depending on the origin of the disease). They are essentially way over medicated while starving to death; it probably wasn't painful if your concerned with your dad. Sorry about your dad, I'm sure he felt nothing but the morphine induced euphoric sensation.
Regardless if overdosing prevents an actual "painful" death (i.e. the complications/symptoms associated with staration and dehydration); euthanasia would have been a much more peaceful and humane way of "setting free" a terminally ill patient.
Quote:
OK, we are repeating ourselves now. You're still saying the same thing and I can't tell if you think the family members have the right to make that choice. Removing the feeding tube is the same as pulling the plug. The outcome of both actions are the same (you say as much in your post). Let me be clear on what I'm saying, if the ill person has not signed a living will giving permission to the family members to do this, it shouldn't be done. However, I will agree with you on one condition, and that's if the person is brain dead. But I can't see any other condition that would dictate such a drastic move.
I have a living will, I have one not because I'm super responsible but because I had to. I want my wishes followed period. I know for a fact that my mother would NEVER have wanted to have us pull the plug. Despite the fact that towards the end, every day a new organ failed. But we knew her well enough to know that she what she wanted, but if you've never asked the person, you don't know. So despite how hard it is on you to see them that way, you should do nothing.
BTW, here's what you've said about feeding tubes: "If a feeding tube is used, the patient is in or near a vegetative state."
I agree, that statement is silly. But again, you seem to talk in circles. Take a stand, can the family make this decision on their own or not. You don't have to agree with me, just be clear.
Are you serious? Why are you the only one not seeing - THE INDIVIDUAL HAS THE ONLY SAY IN EUTHANASIA! NOT THE FAMILY - THE PERSON WHO WILL BE EUTHANIZED IS THE ONLY PERSON!
Google the organization Dignitas in Zurich. Also, a PBS program "Suicide Tourist" is a fine example (actual journey) of a terminally ill man with ALS, who wants to be euthanized, and has his families support.
If someone wants to end their life, for any reason, then they should be able to do so in a painless manner after talking to a psychologist.
I know if I have painful cancer, or some other painful means of dying, I'd rather end it early. Now I don't want to kill myself by jumping off a building, hanging myself, sitting in a car breathing exhaust, or simply putting a bullet through my head. I'd much rather go to a clinic where I was administered a lethal dose of a very good feeling drug, then given carbon dioxide to breathe as I slowly fall asleep forever.
But if it means dying in pain, and the alternative isn't there for me, I'll take matters into my own hand. I don't want to suffer.
I have known 3 people in my life who have killed themselves in violent, gruesome and/or disturbing ways. I also know someone who tried to kill himself by shooting himself in the face, but he lived and is now severely disfigured and has a host of serious health problems.
Should people who are disturbed enough to commit suicide be able to request euthanasia instead of hanging themselves, slitting their wrists, shooting themselves in the head, or jumping off a bridge? Do you think it would be easier for the friends and family to accept the death if it didn't involve violence, gore, and suddenness? If it was "legal" to request euthanasia, but it had to follow a certain protocol (like having to wait a certain length of time before it is administered, and mandatory contact with family members and counseling during that wait time)...I wonder how many could be convinced to choose life if they had that time and counseling beforehand...I wonder how many suicides are just spur of the moment and how many would have chosen differently if they'd taken a step back to really think about what they were doing. Maybe someone feels unloved and unwanted, but once their family is alerted and they shower that person with love and concern, the weight is lifted and that person chooses life? What if counseling breaks through something massive and that person is able to release enough emotional trauma to move forward and feel happiness again?
I don't know...the idea is terrifying and fringed with possibility at the same time...
If someone wants to end their life, for any reason, then they should be able to do so in a painless manner after talking to a psychologist.
I know if I have painful cancer, or some other painful means of dying, I'd rather end it early. Now I don't want to kill myself by jumping off a building, hanging myself, sitting in a car breathing exhaust, or simply putting a bullet through my head. I'd much rather go to a clinic where I was administered a lethal dose of a very good feeling drug, then given carbon dioxide to breathe as I slowly fall asleep forever.
But if it means dying in pain, and the alternative isn't there for me, I'll take matters into my own hand. I don't want to suffer.
Good post.
As for others; I did not start the thread to argue. I think physician assisted euthanasia should NOT be protocol for the terminally ill - ONLY AN OPTION.
We should have a choice to end our own suffering and not burden our loved ones. It's about CHOICE simple as that...
I have known 3 people in my life who have killed themselves in violent, gruesome and/or disturbing ways. I also know someone who tried to kill himself by shooting himself in the face, but he lived and is now severely disfigured and has a host of serious health problems.
Should people who are disturbed enough to commit suicide be able to request euthanasia instead of hanging themselves, slitting their wrists, shooting themselves in the head, or jumping off a bridge? Do you think it would be easier for the friends and family to accept the death if it didn't involve violence, gore, and suddenness? If it was "legal" to request euthanasia, but it had to follow a certain protocol (like having to wait a certain length of time before it is administered, and mandatory contact with family members and counseling during that wait time)...I wonder how many could be convinced to choose life if they had that time and counseling beforehand...I wonder how many suicides are just spur of the moment and how many would have chosen differently if they'd taken a step back to really think about what they were doing. Maybe someone feels unloved and unwanted, but once their family is alerted and they shower that person with love and concern, the weight is lifted and that person chooses life? What if counseling breaks through something massive and that person is able to release enough emotional trauma to move forward and feel happiness again?
I don't know...the idea is terrifying and fringed with possibility at the same time...
No, 99 percent of euthanasia requests should be rejected. NO ONE should ever be euthanized due to depression, mental illness, or any type of suicidal tendencies.
Festering thoughts or emotions does not qualify as terminally illness.
No, 99 percent of euthanasia requests should be rejected. NO ONE should ever be euthanized due to depression, mental illness, or any type of suicidal tendencies.
Festering thoughts or emotions does not qualify as terminally illness.
But here again, aren't we talking about personal CHOICE? If I decide that I would prefer to cease to exist instead of living as I do now, what business is it of anyone else except ME? What right does anyone have to tell me that I must continue to live? How can others tell me that I have no choice?
The inability to do things like get up and down from a chair, turn over in bed, or have normal bowel and kidney function would be a lot worse for some than mere pain.
Last edited by Padgett2; 02-27-2011 at 03:41 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
