Should we imprison those with addictions? (gallon, legal, highway, marijuana)

[mistygrl092]

Originally Posted by ambient

No idea what you're getting at here.

Well, if you divide 200MM by 20,000 (lowball on what it costs to incarcerate someone) it comes out to 10000. In a city the size of SF with a population (last time I checked it was 750K and this was only in the city proper), not many addicts are receiving help at all. Of course, I am making the presumption that all homeless are addicts which I know is a generalization. Many of the homeless are mentally ill (and or addicted) or just down on their luck.

I know a large reason for this is because most addicts don't have insurance and therefore many do not have access to a competent shrink. Therapy costs money too. Medications cost money too. Until they develop the addicition cure (I believe it will come in the form of a pill), something has to be done. I just think it's inhumane to imprison people for having what comes down to a brain disease. Thank God they don't imprison smokers or those who drink red wine, or I'd be in jail myself.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by mistygrl092

Well, if you divide 200MM by 20,000 (lowball on what it costs to incarcerate someone) it comes out to 10000. In a city the size of SF with a population (last time I checked it was 750K and this was only in the city proper), not many addicts are receiving help at all.

I think you may have missed the point. Read the link I posted above. San Francisco spends $200M trying to get homeless people off the streets and into rehab and housing, not on incarceration. Whatever they do spend on incarceration is a separate financial figure.

Originally Posted by mistygrl092

I know a large reason for this is because most addicts don't have insurance and therefore many do not have access to a competent shrink. Therapy costs money too. Medications cost money too. Until they develop the addicition cure (I believe it will come in the form of a pill), something has to be done. I just think it's inhumane to imprison people for having what comes down to a brain disease. Thank God they don't imprison smokers or those who drink red wine, or I'd be in jail myself.

The ONLY thing you can do that would truly work is physically force these people into a boot camp where they will undergo a very strict and disciplined routine that will clean them from drugs and force them to rehabilitate themselves and get to work. It would resemble a Soviet-era gulag.

[mistygrl092]

Originally Posted by ambient

I think you may have missed the point. Read the link I posted above. San Francisco spends $200M trying to get homeless people off the streets and into rehab and housing, not on incarceration. Whatever they do spend on incarceration is a separate financial figure.

I didn't miss the point. I realize the City has tried to deal with the problem but many ARE incarcerated in the Bay Area due to drug charges.

The ONLY thing you can do that would truly work is physically force these people into a boot camp where they will undergo a very strict and disciplined routine that will clean them from drugs and force them to rehabilitate themselves and get to work. It would resemble a Soviet-era gulag.

No, the only thing that will work is prevention and early ID'ing of those with certain genetic predispositions, but that is light years away. Short of that, I do hope one day a cure is found - and it will have more to do with neurotransmitter correction than anything else. Right now out there on the market you've got suboxone, naltrexone, campral, baclofen (not approved in the US), methodone, etc. What is lacking is a reasonable approach to how we view addiction and the support systems available. The only real "prescription" given is to go sit in 12 step meetings, which are akin to a Baptist church service waiting to be purged of your demons.

[Dusty Rhodes]

Originally Posted by ambient

I think you may have missed the point. Read the link I posted above. San Francisco spends $200M trying to get homeless people off the streets and into rehab and housing, not on incarceration. Whatever they do spend on incarceration is a separate financial figure.


The ONLY thing you can do that would truly work is physically force these people into a boot camp where they will undergo a very strict and disciplined routine that will clean them from drugs and force them to rehabilitate themselves and get to work. It would resemble a Soviet-era gulag.

And that would probably not work for more than a couple of hours once they are released.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by mistygrl092

No, the only thing that will work is prevention and early ID'ing of those with certain genetic predispositions, but that is light years away. Short of that, I do hope one day a cure is found - and it will have more to do with neurotransmitter correction than anything else. Right now out there on the market you've got suboxone, naltrexone, campral, baclofen (not approved in the US), methodone, etc. What is lacking is a reasonable approach to how we view addiction and the support systems available. The only real "prescription" given is to go sit in 12 step meetings, which are akin to a Baptist church service waiting to be purged of your demons.

Whatever may or may not happen "light years away" is not going to help now. We can only deal with the situation in the real world we live in today, not the future fantasy world in your head. And in the real world, there is unfortunately nothing you can do to really help these people if they don't want to help themselves and actually clean themselves of their habits. That takes a level of willpower that a drug addict typically doesn't possess; else, they probably wouldn't have ended up a drug addict in the first place. I'm reminded of this tragic fact every time I pass by a homeless person here on the streets.

[mistygrl092]

Originally Posted by ambient

Whatever may or may not happen "light years away" is not going to help now. We can only deal with the situation in the real world we live in today, not the future fantasy world in your head. And in the real world, there is unfortunately nothing you can do to really help these people if they don't want to help themselves and actually clean themselves of their habits. That takes a level of willpower that a drug addict typically doesn't possess; else, they probably wouldn't have ended up a drug addict in the first place. I'm reminded of this tragic fact every time I pass by a homeless person here on the streets.

I'd like to take issue with this. I went through some training put on by a Dr. who specializes in addiction at a treatment center. I learned that some people could try to become addicts and would never succeed, because their brain chemistry is not wired that way. OTOH, some are prone to addiction via genetics and all it takes is to set it off and they become hooked. I really think it has less to do with willpower than having a brain disease.

Also, we're all born with a baseline in terms of the happy chemicals we naturally produce. Addicts are often born with LESS of the happy chemicals in the first place, hence the high just brings them up to baseline where most people are in the first place.

One thing that can be done right now (and it's being done in some places) is to offer addicts choices. By choices I mean solutions that will work for them. But they have to know about the choices first. In the Bay Area you just happen to have an organization called LifeRing which was founded there. It's an alternative to AA. It is slowly catching on but not enough, even though at Kaiser they are offering it as an alternative to 12 step. Then there is SMART (which is also not real prevalent) but maybe if AA didn't rule the market it would be more widely known. I say offer people choices and 95 percent of rehab programs are 12 step. Time for that to change.

But back to the topic, I fail to see how incarcerating drug users doesn't just make matters worse. When they get out, they now have learned even worse behaviors by virture of the fact they've spent time with some real unsavory types who have done far worse things than drugs.

[Driller1]

Originally Posted by mistygrl092

I'd like to take issue with this. I went through some training put on by a Dr. who specializes in addiction at a treatment center. I learned that some people could try to become addicts and would never succeed, because their brain chemistry is not wired that way. OTOH, some are prone to addiction via genetics and all it takes is to set it off and they become hooked. I really think it has less to do with willpower than having a brain disease.

Also, we're all born with a baseline in terms of the happy chemicals we naturally produce. Addicts are often born with LESS of the happy chemicals in the first place, hence the high just brings them up to baseline where most people are in the first place.

One thing that can be done right now (and it's being done in some places) is to offer addicts choices. By choices I mean solutions that will work for them. But they have to know about the choices first. In the Bay Area you just happen to have an organization called LifeRing which was founded there. It's an alternative to AA. It is slowly catching on but not enough, even though at Kaiser they are offering it as an alternative to 12 step. Then there is SMART (which is also not real prevalent) but maybe if AA didn't rule the market it would be more widely known. I say offer people choices and 95 percent of rehab programs are 12 step. Time for that to change.

But back to the topic, I fail to see how incarcerating drug users doesn't just make matters worse. When they get out, they now have learned even worse behaviors by virture of the fact they've spent time with some real unsavory types who have done far worse things than drugs.

One thing....

Your post is under the assumption that the drugs are their ONLY crime.

We all know how many support their habit.

[Childfree35]

Originally Posted by Driller1

CAN, yes. Not ALWAYS.

There is not such thing as an occasional crack user. People kid themselves and say, oh, I do it every now and then. Crack will become highly addictive. Crack users will tell you they are chasing the same high, when hitting the pipe for the first time.

You sound very naive here, Driller.

[Driller1]

Originally Posted by Childfree35

There is not such thing as an occasional crack user. People kid themselves and say, oh, I do it every now and then. Crack will become highly addictive. Crack users will tell you they are chasing the same high, when hitting the pipe for the first time.

You sound very naive here, Driller.

Where did I use the word "occasional".

I said "once".

[Childfree35]

Originally Posted by Driller1

Where did I use the word "occasional".

I said "once".

I know what you said. Your thinking is one time crack smokers won't get hooked. This isn't the case.

Crack isn't cigarettes. Some people smoke a cig and don't pick up another. Ever.