Do you really believe that people are born gay? (racism, Sanders, compared)

[Xiaomao]

I've been wondering this for a long time- do people really believe that gays are born gay? If so, is there really enough scientific evidence to support this theory?

I don't believe that people are born gay, or with any particular sexual preference- why is that so wrong for me to believe it's a combination of predisposition to certain things, coupled with the environment?

For example, some people are predisposed to be more sensitive/emotional than others- if they are raised in an environment that is very insensitive/emotionally invalidating, it can be disastrous for that person.

I don't hate gays- I don't believe they should be hated for what they do/who they're attracted to, but I just don't see how it's wrong/hateful to believe that sexual attraction to things is NOT GENETIC.

Do you believe that people who are sexually attracted to children (pedophilia) are born sexually attracted to children, too? Is there also a pedophile gene? What about people who are sexually attracted to animals? Is there a gene for that, too? I'm mostly interested in men of certain races- does that mean I was born attracted to those races, too?

I am very interested in psychology, and I know well that environment is very important in shaping people in various ways- why is this overlooked and discounted so much when we discuss sexual orientation?

I sincerely apologize if this is not really 'Great Debates' worthy- and this is not a topic to encourage hatred toward anyone, because I don't believe in that sort of thing- but I am legitimately curious about the 'gay gene' theory, what basis for it there is, and if it applies to other sexual 'orientations' as well. If not, why?

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

An interesting question to me is why people even care if it is genetic or not. Something being "natural" or "genetic" does not automatically mean it is morally "right" OR morally "wrong". I guess people who are so strongly opposed to the idea that it might be genetic have realised that if sexual orientation is inborn, analogous-discrimination against gay people constitutes a kind of racism.

Originally Posted by Xiaomao

I've been wondering this for a long time- do people really believe that gays are born gay? If so, is there really enough scientific evidence to support this theory?

There very much is a lot of science indicating this. In the post below this one I will reproduce some quotes as a short example of what there is much of out there.

Originally Posted by Xiaomao

I don't believe that people are born gay, or with any particular sexual preference- why is that so wrong for me to believe it's a combination of predisposition to certain things, coupled with the environment?

Environment incorporates a lot of things, including the particular mix of nutrients, hormones and more in the womb of the mother. Much of what we are learning about homosexuality today suggests that it is not just genetics but genetics coupled with the hormones the fetus is subjected to that results in homosexual tendencies.

If our sexual attraction to the opposite sex is genetic, why would it not be genetic to be attracted to the same sex?

Originally Posted by Xiaomao

Do you believe that people who are sexually attracted to children (pedophilia) are born sexually attracted to children, too? Is there also a pedophile gene?

One important thing to say is that just because homosexuality may be genetic, does not mean that there is a specific homosexual gene. That is a misunderstanding many suffer from.

However as for pedophilia, there is much we still need to learn about this. It is for obvious reasons a very difficult subject to study even compared to homosexuality. In fact many psychologists can not even agree on whether pedophiles are people who have something we "normal" people lack... or they lack something we "normal" people have.... or both.... which provides some obvious hurdles for treatment. To make an analogy to physical medicine... a doctor needs to know when you have symptom X if it is being caused by you having something (an infection maybe) or lacking something (a vitamin or mineral maybe) and treatment will be massively different depending on which it is.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

- A study by scientists at Karolinska Institutet, Stockholm (Sweden), and published in the journal "Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences." has demonstrated that gay men react as women do to male phermones, and differently from straight men.

Originally Posted by National Geographic

The researchers found that the testosterone compound activated the hypothalamus in homosexual men and heterosexual women, but not heterosexual men. Conversely, the estrogen compound activated the hypothalamus only in heterosexual men.
"It shows a different physiological response to the same external stimulus," said Ivanka Savic, a neuroscientist at the Karolinska Institute and the study's lead researcher. "This response [occurred] in the brain region involved in reproductive behavior."

- Studies prove that gay brothers have a higher incidence of having gay maternal uncles than paternal uncles. One of the studies has the incidence of maternal gay uncles at 13%, compared to 6% for the paternal uncles of gay brothers. This implies that some gay men inherit attraction to men from their mother or grandmother.

Chromosome linkage studies of sexual orientation have indicated the presence of multiple contributing genetic factors throughout the genome. In 1993, Dean Hamer and colleagues published findings from a linkage analysis of a sample of 76 gay brothers and their families.[12] Hamer et al. found that the gay men had more gay male uncles and cousins on the maternal side of the family than on the paternal side. Gay brothers who showed this maternal pedigree were then tested for X chromosome linkage, using twenty-two markers on the X chromosome to test for similar alleles. In another finding, thirty-three of the forty sibling pairs tested were found to have similar alleles in the distal region of Xq28, which was significantly higher than the expected rates of 50% for fraternal brothers. This was popularly dubbed as the 'gay gene' in the media, causing significant controversy. Sanders et al. in 1998 reported on their similar study, in which they found that 13% of uncles of gay brothers on the maternal side were homosexual, compared to 6% on the paternal side.[13]

More:

The 1993 study by Hamer examined 114 families of gay men in Italy and found supposed increased rates of homosexuality among maternal uncles and cousins, but not among paternal relatives. Genetic linkage was studied in 40 of the families, in which there were two gay brothers. A correlation to Xq28 and other microsatellite markers was found in approximately 64% of the cases. A similar study by the same team conducted in 1995, again based on Italian material corroborated these results, but failed to find a link to the Xq28 gene among homosexual females.[3]

- A follow-up study on individuals from the same sample used by Hamer found a possible link to the genes 7q36, 8p12 and 10q26 among gay participants:

Mustanski et al. (2005) performed a full-genome scan (instead of just an X chromosome scan) on individuals and families previously reported on in Hamer et al. (1993) and Hu et al. (1995), as well as additional new subjects.[17] With the larger sample set and complete genome scan, the study found somewhat reduced linkage for Xq28 than reported by Hamer et al. However, they did find other markers with a likelihood score falling just short of significance at 7q36 and likelihood scores approaching significance at 8p12 and 10q26. Interestingly, 10q26 showed highly significant maternal loading, thus further supporting the previous family studies.

- Mothers of homosexual sons have dramatically higher incidence of the X-Chromosome being inactive:

A recent study suggests linkage between a mother's genetic make-up and homosexuality of her sons. Women have two X chromosomes, one of which is "switched off". The inactivation of the X chromosome occurs randomly throughout the embryo, resulting in cells that are mosaic with respect to which chromosome is active. In some cases though, it appears that this switching off can occur in a non-random fashion. Bocklandt et al. (2006) reported that, in mothers of homosexual men, the number of women with extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation is significantly higher than in mothers without gay sons. Thirteen percent of mothers with one gay son, and 23% of mothers with two gay sons showed extreme skewing, compared to 4% percent of mothers without gay sons

- Men with an older brother are 33% more likely to be gay, according to Blanchard and Klassen (1997). This is because male foetuses produce HY antigens which result in the mother producing H-Y antibodies which suppress the masculinisation of the brain and :

Blanchard and Klassen (1997) reported that each older brother increases the odds of a man being gay by 33%.[19][20] This is now "one of the most reliable epidemiological variables ever identified in the study of sexual orientation."[21] To explain this finding, it has been proposed that male fetuses provoke a maternal immune reaction that becomes stronger with each successive male fetus. Male fetuses produce HY antigens which are "almost certainly involved in the sexual differentiation of vertebrates." It is this antigen which maternal H-Y antibodies are proposed to both react to and 'remember'. Successive male fetuses are then attacked by H-Y antibodies which somehow decrease the ability of H-Y antigens to perform their usual function in brain masculinisation.[19]

- The more fertile a mother, the more likely she is to produce homosexual sons, according to an Italian study of 4,600 relatives of 98 gay and 100 heterosexual men:

In 2004, Italian researchers conducted a study of about 4,600 people who were the relatives of 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men tended to have more offspring than those of the heterosexual men. Female relatives of the homosexual men on their mother's side tended to have more offspring than those on the father's side. The researchers concluded that there was genetic material being passed down on the X chromosome which both promotes fertility in the mother and homosexuality in her male offspring. The connections discovered, would explain about 20% of the cases studied, indicating that this is a highly significant but not the sole genetic factor determining sexual orientation

[texan2yankee]

Yes. The science may come later. After all, people thought the world was flat for a long time because math and science weren't available to prove the world was round.

[TimeMachine]

I am NOT trying to shut down conversation by any means, just putting my own thoughts in, sorry if this seems abrupt.
When I ask myself this question I just kind of shake my head and say "I don't really know". But then a more urgent thought comes to my mind of "But what does it matter??" I mean, if two people choose to be in a romantic relationship with each other, and that relationship is healthy for both partners, what does it really matter if the partners were BORN to love a certain sex or LEARNED to love a certain sex. Isn't love still love?



But YES, from a purely academic POV, it would be interesting to know once and for all if genetics play a roll, just for some closure on the subject.

[in_newengland]

I haven't read the thread but the gay people I've known hated being gay and some even went into therapy to try to change. My thought is that SOME gays got that way by environment and they might be able to change back but most have something hereditary.

There are people who are born with the wrong sex organs. There are men who look feminine. A lot can go wrong during the gestation process and so much of what we are is due to hormones.

edited--
Much of what we are learning about homosexuality today suggests that it is not just genetics but genetics coupled with the hormones the fetus is subjected to that results in homosexual tendencies.-------From a previous post--this is what I meant, this is what I've figured out too but here it is worded a lot better.

[CookieSkoon]

I honestly believe homosexuality, in honest cases, is a natural occurrence.

However, there are also a lot young people who wear it as a fashion statement and that does not help for the folks who really are.

I don't think people are born gay though. Like all sexuality it develops over time. People aren't born straight either. :P

[Thinking_Out_Loud]

I am into guys and women. I am bisexual, I cannot help it. I knew it since I was young and will not say otherwise. My story is what it is.

[DCforever]

The gays almost universally say that they always knew they were different.

Do you think people can be born as heterosexuals?

[BigDGeek]

Whatever the cause(s) of homosexuality, I do not believe it to be a conscious choice. So yes, I suppose people are "born gay." Really makes no difference to me whether they choose it or not, I don't see anything wrong with it and consenting adults aren't hurting anyone.

I also don't see why we are continuing to have this conversation in 2011.