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Old 10-14-2011, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,520,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollytree View Post
And, look at the fiscal problems we have created with the expense of the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. (Not to mention the cost in human agony and death...)

But this is part of what the current protests are all about- a government gone awry.
I think we are just seeing the very beginning of these protests. They will get bigger and bigger until those useless so called leaders in Washington wake up and actually do something.

It will be very interesting to see what happens with the protests here in Canada. If you can get more than 5000 Canadians out to a protest for more than 3 or 4 days then you know there is a very serious problem.
All our government has to do is to schedule some kind of hockey challenge in the middle of the day and all the protesters will leave the street and go to the sports bar.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Not where you ever lived
11,544 posts, read 25,899,413 times
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Default #6

I strongly disagree. Home schooled children have more social interaction with others than the public schooled children by the very nature of how it is taught. Narly every outing is a lesson that can be applied to a subject - whether the child is picking up leaves or reading the info on a can of soup. Kids study the same subjects as public shools teach. School is generally shorter hours but is 12 months. These students are state tested on the subjects taught and do suprisingly well. Whether or not religious schools follow state policy regarding subjects taught and state testing I do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I don't believe we are heading towards Civil War. I think people are very polarized. I can identify trends in recent history that brought this about that are of grave concern to me. Here are a few:

1. The decline of the Middle Class. As more people fall into categories of "rich" or "poor" more conflict is bound to occur. The Era of the Middle Class was from 1945 to around 2000. Although, by 2000, it was clearly in decline because of trends within our greater economy. The "Information Age" has made our lives easier, but has concentrated more wealth in the hands of fewer people.

2. The rise of one issue political action committees or PACS that are willing to spend millions of dollars to elect or remove a candidate from office who doesn't favor unrestricted gun control, unrestricted access to abortion, or no tax increases across the board.

3. The rise of one-sided media outlets that give exactly one viewpoint all day long. It used to be that everyone in the country had to listen to ABC, CBS, or NBC for news. It lead to a certain homogeneity in reporting. Nowadays, you can listen to a dozen or more media outlets reporting news. I personally don't care much for either MSNBC or FOX. I say cynically that today's media not only gives people a choice of channels to watch, but it also gives people a choice of what facts they want to believe.

4. Less civility in life. Its not just politics, but too many people feel behavior that was totally unacceptable even thirty years ago is acceptable today. I have read of situations where angry parents have attacked and beaten little league coaches at their children's games because they didn't like a call a referee made. I remember other stories about angry women customers physically attacking sales clerks in department stores. Political discourse in this country is awful and I see a lot of it right here on CDF. A debate on politics should not begin with one side calling the other a "socialist" or a "tea-party-nut".

5. The increasing number of technologies that encourage people to "become an island unto themselves". You can put on an IPOD with ear phones and go on a walk or to the store and you don't need to even hear another person say the word "hello" to you. You can spend all day next to satellite tv listening any one of hundreds of channels. Some people, sadly, prefer this to any sort of dialogue with other people and it shows. I think we have many people today who have an attitude that they can just "tune out" the parts of the world that they don't approve of or dislike.

6. The rise of private education and homeschooling. Many people don't believe that the public schools have done their job. I won't debate the merits of that proposition either way. What I will say is simply that many more people today have made the choice to either home-school their children or send them to a private school. This keeps them away from other children and leads, over time, to the development of more of a feeling of elitism and difference. When I went to school, it was unthinkable that any child in my neighborhood would not attend public school. It may not have resulted in the best education for all the children, but we all saw ourselves as part of a group and there was no elitism among us at all.

7. Unwillingness to compromise among our political leadership. This is a big one. In the past, both parties advocated points of view, but when it came to issues like setting a budget, one could count on both sides compromising enough to get the job done. Anymore, I wonder if Congress is even up to a task like this. Our leaders should set an example for us. They shouldn't encourage more division.

Some of these things simply can't be rolled back or reformed. For example, we aren't going to make the use of the technologies that I've mentioned above illegal. Somethings could be changed. Perhaps, laws could be passed or the Constitution could be amended, so that PACs don't play such a major role in our politics. Young people could be taught more in school about basic civility.

While I don't see this as leading to a Civil War, the fact that the question is even posed is disturbing and is an indication of just how bad things have gotten. We found our way into this mess. I pray we can start finding our way out of it.

Last edited by linicx; 10-16-2011 at 12:05 AM..
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: USA
19,627 posts, read 14,589,241 times
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The US has always been polarized, but worse. Every generation says the same thing: "This is the end, it's never been worse"

BS, its been a lot worse.

In the 70's we were getting out of Vietnam, Nixon was having his way with the White house, Watergate. Before that we had the Kennady assasinations, threat of Nuclears war, Manson, The weather under ground, Riots all over. before that we had Hoover running the FBI as his own personal police, Segregation, the CIA and the military conducting tests on civilians. You can go back to the turn of the century and look through articles where thaey thought the world was ending. It goes on and on.

We just have more time to whine about it now!
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:12 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
8,471 posts, read 6,091,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
The US has always been polarized, but worse. Every generation says the same thing: "This is the end, it's never been worse"

BS, its been a lot worse.

In the 70's we were getting out of Vietnam, Nixon was having his way with the White house, Watergate. Before that we had the Kennady assasinations, threat of Nuclears war, Manson, The weather under ground, Riots all over. before that we had Hoover running the FBI as his own personal police, Segregation, the CIA and the military conducting tests on civilians. You can go back to the turn of the century and look through articles where thaey thought the world was ending. It goes on and on.

We just have more time to whine about it now!
I disagree with most of your characterization and my memories go back into the 50s.

First of all, not every generation says "This is the end, it's never been worse". There was relatively very little of that talk in the 70s after Vietnam ended or in the 80s or the 90s....and most certainly not in the 50s.

Of the items you listed only Vietnam and the 60s racial tension/riots were matters of division or polarization. In fact some, like the Kennedy assassinations, were more uniters than dividers despite their great tragedy.

In the last 60 years, only the 60s (due to Vietnam and racial tension) match and, yes, overall exceed the level of polarization we see today.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:31 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,307 posts, read 3,867,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
I'm only 47 years old, but I have seen (in my opinion) the United States becoming more and more polarized.

It seems that there are two "camps" in America:

The first group are those who many label Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, and Socialists. These are people who want the government to have as big a role as possible in everyday life, want to take from those that have and give to those that have not, want a tolerance for all people (whether a majority population considers those individual's behaviors "normal" or not), and wants to teardown mainstream society so that there are no "norms" other than what the government can legislate as your freedoms, regardless of the Constitution.

The second group are those that are labeled Republicans, Conservatives, Traditionalists, Neocons, and Evangelicals. These are people that want to preserve their way of life at the cost of individual freedoms, want a society that borders on theocracy, uses Christianity as the basis for every decision (and expect others, regardless of religion, to accept their word on faith), blindly put corporations and the rich at the pinnacle of society, and use the Constitution as a finalized product or shield, and not the living document in which it was intended.

I have spun both these political beliefs in a negative fashion, but I could have just as easily spoken positively about both, as well. That is because I believe it is these negative views that are tearing the nation apart, not the positive ones. I will also openly admit that I lean more towards one side than the other, but have tried to appear neutral for the purpose of the question.

Because of these two polarized political factions, I think they are using legislation, smears, and outright lies to get people to polarize and join their causes. And, I do believe they are succeeding.

So, this all goes to my question (in the subject line), with America as polarized as it is, and the increasing polarization that happens every day, do you believe we are headed towards another civil war? If so, what can we do to prevent it? If not, why not (do you disagree we're more polarized as a nation now than we have been in recent times (last 100 years)?
I do not see we will have a Civil War as an armed conflict. I see these times as crucial times where we are having a lot of social upheaval. That will lead into a lot demonstrations, civil disobedience, and granted some physical confrotation between civilians and law enforcement, something like the 60s had. Take care.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:12 AM
 
488 posts, read 459,919 times
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Isn't the average voter turnout for elections a little over 50%? If half the country isn't even bothering to vote I doubt that you would get enough people together to start a second civil war.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:02 AM
 
Location: 80904 West siiiiiide!
2,937 posts, read 7,298,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathagos View Post
I'm only 47 years old, but I have seen (in my opinion) the United States becoming more and more polarized.

It seems that there are two "camps" in America:

The first group are those who many label Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, and Socialists. These are people who want the government to have as big a role as possible in everyday life, want to take from those that have and give to those that have not, want a tolerance for all people (whether a majority population considers those individual's behaviors "normal" or not), and wants to teardown mainstream society so that there are no "norms" other than what the government can legislate as your freedoms, regardless of the Constitution.

The second group are those that are labeled Republicans, Conservatives, Traditionalists, Neocons, and Evangelicals. These are people that want to preserve their way of life at the cost of individual freedoms, want a society that borders on theocracy, uses Christianity as the basis for every decision (and expect others, regardless of religion, to accept their word on faith), blindly put corporations and the rich at the pinnacle of society, and use the Constitution as a finalized product or shield, and not the living document in which it was intended.

I have spun both these political beliefs in a negative fashion, but I could have just as easily spoken positively about both, as well. That is because I believe it is these negative views that are tearing the nation apart, not the positive ones. I will also openly admit that I lean more towards one side than the other, but have tried to appear neutral for the purpose of the question.

Because of these two polarized political factions, I think they are using legislation, smears, and outright lies to get people to polarize and join their causes. And, I do believe they are succeeding.

So, this all goes to my question (in the subject line), with America as polarized as it is, and the increasing polarization that happens every day, do you believe we are headed towards another civil war? If so, what can we do to prevent it? If not, why not (do you disagree we're more polarized as a nation now than we have been in recent times (last 100 years)?
God I hope so! I can't wait, have hoped it will happen. At this point we've crossed the threshold of having diplomacy solve anything. It's time for another bloody revolution. And this time, the country needs to be divided for good. North US, and South US.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,247,498 times
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Things are a little different now than they were in 1861. Even if we were to suppose that all the cards fell in place to generate a Civil War, one main thing people forget is the sheer firepower of military might the federal government has at its own disposal. In 1861, most of the Confederate Army could match, rifle for rifle, that of the Union soldiers in terms of firepower.

But, in this day and age, even with gun laws being as lax as they are, it's going to be very difficult for a modern day Confederacy to come up with something that could defend against, say, an AC-130 gunship circling overhead.

Granted, they could carry on like our enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan with roadside bombs and various guerrilla warfare strategies but our infrastructure is set up in such a way that even that would make things difficult, to say the least.

Our government holds the ability to tap virtually any cell phone, wireless device, etc... and I simply can't imagine a network of cell towers, phone lines, and wireless providers that aren't already part of a network that could easily be tapped into. It's a lot harder to plan a revolution, to organize a rebellion, or plot to overthrow a government (or make battle plans) if you're being listened in on.

In short, the federal government has at its disposal almost every tool imaginable. The American people do not have the resolve of the Afghanis, a history of oppression like the Iraqi's, or the death-wish of terrorists. One bomb strafing in a city like Atlanta or Dallas and people would be surrendering in a heartbeat, the war would be over and that would be that.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,650,539 times
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Default Where to even start with such nonsense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanek9freak View Post
God I hope so! I can't wait, have hoped it will happen. At this point we've crossed the threshold of having diplomacy solve anything. It's time for another bloody revolution. And this time, the country needs to be divided for good. North US, and South US.
Do you live in a cave? Even if not, you certainly live in a time warp. This is 2011. The divisions in this country are no longer the north versus the south, apart from a few nut cases. The divisions are the haves versus the have-nots and those divisions transcend and trump all geographical considerations. What diplomacy are you talking about? And are you even aware that your post doesn't make any sense?
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,466 posts, read 74,342,682 times
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there will be some problems up the road, that is what the fema detention centers are for.
you know the one beck says dont exist. if they start yanking your guns out of the home you know its comin.
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