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While it is clear that rights are inventions of mankind, there is at least one right for which I cannot think of a counter argument. That is the right to be born free versus born into slavery. I just cannot imagine a set of circumstances or corner cases in which the outcome is that it is OK to be born into slavery. I'm willing to posit that someone may find a set of facts to support it, but I haven't been able to find such a set of facts.
This is why I find the whole concept of "natural rights" to be silly. Our own system tolerated and legitimized slavery for over 80 years after Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence stating that all men had the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
I've seen poster after poster here assert that people have specific natural rights. I haven't seen one poster yet identify what the alleged "source" of those rights is. Is is God? Is it something metaphysical? Is it the Wizard of Oz?
If these natural rights are the same everywhere than why is polygamy acceptable in some cultures? Why is slandering God or a prophet punishable by death in some cultures where in others there is near complete freedom of speech and expression? Why would some societies give their citizens a right to a social safety net (protection against hunger, joblessness, etc.) while others take the position its completely up to the individual to deal with these issues?
The only conclusion that can legitimately be drawn is that "rights" are very cultural in nature. They tend to represent expressions of the values that are held by different cultures around the world. One culture may express that its highest value is individual liberty. Another culture may believe its greatest value is harmony of a group with everyone getting along. A third culture may believe that equality is a greater value than liberty. A fourth culture may believe that observing religious piety is most important value of all.
I believe that alongside of rights there are obligations and responsibilities. It is difficult to think of rights without their concomitant obligations and responsibilities.
Exactly.
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For example, once we assert a basic right to life & liberty, then there are obligations and responsibilities of that human being to participate in society in a particular way. If that individual engages in murder, we revoke that individual's right to life & liberty -- we punish that individual through incarceration or execution.
Thats a new invention & I'd bet the forefathers would not have supported long incarcerations. They just hung murderers & moved on. They had little desire to ruin a persons life by ignoreing their rights. Either you were fit to live in our society or you were not. Once proven unfit you were done.
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While it is clear that rights are inventions of mankind, there is at least one right for which I cannot think of a counter argument. That is the right to be born free versus born into slavery. I just cannot imagine a set of circumstances or corner cases in which the outcome is that it is OK to be born into slavery. I'm willing to posit that someone may find a set of facts to support it, but I haven't been able to find such a set of facts.
Rights are not our inventions, the basic ones are not anyway, they exist throughout nature. The right to life is seen every time an animal fights for its life, the right to go where you please is also excercised, even the right to arms is seen, nobody tells a tiger it shouldn't have claws because a zebra doesn't, they & we have every right to use whatever we have to secure our persons, obtain food, find shelter etc.
as far as slavery I tend to agree, nobody is born to be a slave. But if a persons life is spent milking the system I wouldn't have a problem if they were forced to work it off however that society saw fit.
Do you have the right to happiness?
Fresh water?
An Education? College?
Food?
Life?
Do(Should) these rights change by country?
Your rights are limited by your society and your government. In an ideal world, this would not be the case. Therefore, this situation has always been among the major causes of war and rebellion.
Your rights are limited by your society and your government. In an ideal world, this would not be the case. Therefore, this situation has always been among the major causes of war and rebellion.
if you are a socialist - you would be correct
however - in the real world those are entitlements so long as they are under the control of society and government.
There's no such things as rights. Or if there is, the only one we have for granted is the air we breathe. It is a simplistic human concept.
A human being is responsible for very aspect of is life. That includes how he feeds himself, the lifestyle and comfortabilities with which he profits himself, and what he does with his free-will, makes a life or makes nothing.
You have freedom + life = whatever you choose to do. The idle don't survive. And. freedom without responsibility is like driving a car with no brakes.
Man does not have the right to give them or take them away.
That is why America was always such a great country.
I agree. Those who say otherwise are missing the point of the whole Constitution. If basic rights come from a higher power, that means governments are not the ultimate authority. Once rights become a man made concept, they are easily twisted and abused, and the evidence is abundant that they have been.
I agree. Those who say otherwise are missing the point of the whole Constitution. If basic rights come from a higher power, that means governments are not the ultimate authority. Once rights become a man made concept, they are easily twisted and abused, and the evidence is abundant that they have been.
I realize that some choose to repeat this as a mantra. I'm sure many believe it. My question is how do they know God gave everyone natural rights? Is it their contention he gave everyone in every place on this globe the same natural rights?
What are those rights exactly? The right to have four wives if you live in Saudi Arabia? If you live in Canada do they include the rights to "peace, order, and good government" which is the basis for the Canadian Constitution? If I live in Sweden do those rights include the right to a job, or in its absence, some type of income supplement from the state? I think Swedes would tell you that those are part of their rights?
If you say the Swedes are wrong, the Saudis are wrong, and the Canadians are wrong what gives you the right to tell them what their natural rights are?
The basic problem with "natural rights" is that they are not like statutory law. If I question whether a statute means X or Y, I can always go to it, read it, and in most cases conclude what the legislative body was saying. If I have a dispute over the meaning of "natural law" I can't exactly go to the "original text" and try to get an answer. In short, the danger of "natural rights" is that they can pretty much stand for anything anyone wants them too.
As a result different people who contend that natural law is real are going to always be getting different answers. Their "laws" are going to look differently than the natural "laws" we think we follow over here in America.
Does anyone want to try and comment on my argument that natural rights at the very least have cultural components? That might actually make this discussion intellectual as opposed to simply repeating a tired mantra.
Originally Posted by matt1984 Sorry but people do have the right to food, water and shelter. Those are basic things all humans need and to not have is just wrong. That kind of idea that these things are not rights are used in other countries where its citizens live in the worst possible poverty possible. Do you really want our country to go there? You know what having no right to food, shelter and water was called back in the day in the U.S. that's right slavery. I am sure you are okay with homelessness in this country I mean they deserve to live on the streets because they couldn't be responsible according to you even though you have no idea why they are homeless or what might be preventing them from not being homeless. Hate to break it to you but we do not live in a everyone for themselves society no matter how much you may want us to.
Actually, while it could be said that keeping water, food & shelter from someone is morally wrong & denying their right to these things, you dont actually have a right to food or water. If circumstances find you stuck in a place with neither & you die thats just life. You have the right to look for water & food to the best of your ability, thats it, no guarantees. Many of the poorest parts of the world simply cannot support their human populations. In nature those people would die or move, they certainly have a right to move, but not to expect manna from heaven in the form of others feeding them. Homelessness is a separate matter that really has nothing to do with rights in the context of this discussion, beyond the fact that you have a right to be homeless if you want or to try to move up if you want. But there is no right to sucess, only oportunity & the fact is in todays world most homeless in this country avoid responsibility at all costs. No biggie, I believe in their right to live as they choose. I live in a small city & have for 35 of my 45 years. I know a bunch of our "can Men" or homeless, whatever you choose to label them, I call them by name. Anyway every one I know is relatively content doing just what they want. Would they like more handouts? Of course, do they moan about their status? of course, but try to get one to come to work for 3 days straight.
Anyway, I guess you do have a right to the resources in your area & the right to move to a better place if yours dont have what you need. But thats it, if you live in the desert & there is no water theres no rights violation involved.
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