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Old 01-28-2012, 10:25 AM
 
4,524 posts, read 3,657,048 times
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These rich people don't even need most of what they have, and yet they don't really contribute much to charity or helping people. I can understand why the communist revolutionists were so passionate and zealous about them. What do most lawyers contribute to society anyway? Our law and order system would function fine without them. My sister is studying to be a lawyer so I could be biased. It's the last thing I'd do but I respect her choice to go into it. Many doctors couldn't care less about actually HELPING patients. I wouldn't trust those doctors as far as I could throw them. Funnily enough my mother is a doctor too but she's not like that. She actually cares about helping people. She was from a working class background who had to struggle her way to the top. While she should earn more than a janitor, even I think what she gets is too much lol.

Perhaps, its because I am a lawyer that I find your reasoning faulty. The single comment you make that bothers me the most is:

"What do most lawyers contribute to society anyway? Our law and order system would function fine without them."

The only kind of society that could function "fine" without lawyers would be an extremely primitive one. If there are no contracts between people, no disputes are going to arise as to their interpretation or enforcement. Perhaps, that would be an agricultural society or hunting and gathering culture where everyone is self sufficient. If no one was ever involved in an accident that was the fault of another there would be no need for lawyers either. I suppose this would be a society without internal combustion engines. Perhaps, the people would get around by walking or riding their own horse. The society that you seem to envision would be one where there is no need for any form of insurance because once private insurance is involved, you are always going to have a situation where some type of regulation needs to be imposed on insurers to make certain they honor their obligations. Lawyers are heavily involved in doing just that.

Now lets get to criminal justice. Do you really believe the average person is capable of representing himself without an attorney? What about cases that involve complex facts like identification by DNA or fingerprints? You think ordinary people without legal training could develop and present such a case without making a hundred errors in the process? Would we have police in the society that you envision? Because if we do these police will inevitably be subject to pressures that force them to use tricks and coercion to elicit both accurate and false confessions from suspects. Do you think an ordinary person should be expected to deal with this without any professional help? Without lawyers, I fear that the "criminal justice system" would turn very rapidly into a lynch mob. Anyone who doubts me ought to go read some of the posts in the "True Crime Forum" here on CDF sometime.

The essence of it is really this: Only in Utopia would lawyers be unnecessary. The dynamic in reality goes something like this: Simple societies need less "lawyering" More complex societies need more "lawyering". As societies become more complex and need for "lawyering", the need for an entire profession of lawyers arises.

I won't respond to your comments about physicians. I will say that modern medicine is a miracle that all of us should give thanks for everyday. I don't like the cost of it all, but at the same time its why 3/4's of us are even alive.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:47 PM
 
47,586 posts, read 35,516,431 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I agree it's good to keep your body and mind active as long as you can. That doesn't mean just doing chores, of course, but may include merely spending more time with others. That's why I actually think retirement homes, the reputable ones, can be better for old folks as it gives them a chance to mix. Those that live alone often live very lonely lives. It's harder to them to visit others, and many just become increasingly more withdrawn from the world. In other societies the grandparents still live with the family, so they are always around their children and grandchildren. They also have an active role in their community, evidenced by the fact you often see them on the street or still working. I find old people also have a bigger role in small tons, while the city by it's very bustling fast-paced nature leaves them behind. Our society almost tries to ignore the old because they remind us of our own mortality. We compartmentalize them, hide them behind doors, viewing them as tragic, and to be pitied, instead of being the founts of knowledge and wisdom that they are.
Yes and not only that - most Americans know so little about real toil that we have to join gyms -- and PAY money to have some kind of toil for our bodies.

Mental toil is excellent for your brain also which is why the working elderly are in such better shape mentally and physically.
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,667 posts, read 2,414,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Yes and not only that - most Americans know so little about real toil that we have to join gyms -- and PAY money to have some kind of toil for our bodies.

Mental toil is excellent for your brain also which is why the working elderly are in such better shape mentally and physically.
I think it really depends on the person. Some elderly people are as active as you or I well into their 80's. Look at William Shatner...the guy is approaching 80 and looks almost the same as he did 30 years ago. Other people start failing physically in their 50's. Retirement should really be optional. I don't really think there should be a standard retirement age as many people prefer to keep working and dread retirement.
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Texas, USA
2 posts, read 1,571 times
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Originally Posted by dragonborn View Post
Another insightful post of yours that got me thinking. I've been trying to convey the same thing for quite some time, i.e. that life isn't always worth living in several cases, but that notion itself varies by individual.

There are several issues at hand here:

1) Life has become very routine and mundane, society has become very polarised in terms of culture, ways to earn a living that won't leave you broke.

2) We have lost touch with our spiritual side, even those who claim to be religious.

3) The destruction of the family unit over the last few decades, especially in predominantly English speaking countries.

4) Less time spent surrounded by nature and our friends and family, more time spent working at jobs we hate in offices full of people we hate, but pretend we like.

Life has become far more futile for poorer people trapped and marginalised in depressing inner cities. I honestly believe that many people would be happier and more productive working on the land. Corporate culture has sucked the life and soul out of many aspects of humanity. Some practically love it and have embraced the change, while others like me despise it. Many people secretly despise their jobs, 2 hour commutes and being too drained to find any kind of outlet.

I am certainly not advocating not working, but I personally wish there were more options for those of us who wish to earn enough to survive, but far away from the rat race.

What brought me down a few days ago is when a colleague of mine scoffed at me for reading fiction, making a comment on how only factual stuff is worth reading. Corporate culture = not for me.

I don't get the appeal of trying to be wealthy, if you've either got to practically kill yourself doing it, sell your soul or step on someone else on the way up. What's the point of money if you can't enjoy it, and I am not referring to material possessions that people obsess over and crave for.

Unlike some previous replies, I get what you are saying completely! Not looking for a handout, things just given to you, but back to a time of true work and morals which fill us in every way. If you ever have the opportunity to grow ALL your own food supplies for the entire year AND have enough left to sell or barter it is an amazing thing! You took the time, involved your family, taught them life skills and bonded. Then you get to watch tiny miracles take place as you tend to every detail. Utilizing so many different methods of natural 'wash-out' fertilizer or thinning your crops and removing the weeds. Caring for the animals and being in the sunshine which gives our bodies natural Vit/hormone D that just can't be replicated. Coming up with new ideas for games and irrigation or whatever you can imagine to do, you can create! We lack that in the 'Rat Race' in the city throwing our kids from one place to another while we work ourselves to death just to pay the mortgage and keep up with the Jones'. It's insane! Kids today have no common courtesy, common sense...heck they can't count back your change without using a calculator much less know what a cord of wood is!!! They would get ripped off in a heart beat!!! Too easy to fool those city slickers! I was lucky to live a double life. Half city and half country doing both! Part with mom and rest with grandparents on the farm! Best thing ever! But it takes ALL kinds to run this crazy world, or it would be rather boring! Next time you see a ditch digger smiling while working in 120 degree weather...I'm sure they would prefer that than to be beaten daily in their country of origin and terrorized living daily in fear for their lives! Better to have little in treasures of the Earth than to have little Joy of the Earth!!!
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:18 AM
 
Location: United Kingdom
1 posts, read 278 times
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Yes, life is really worth living if you knew your real purpose of living here after all whatever we do here on earth will depend on the life we want in other world.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:50 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
9,007 posts, read 3,810,763 times
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A friend's father said this to his children:
"Shirk not your travails and troubles, as they are God's gift."

My old man said:
"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

Different words, same thought. Both say life requires hard work and failure and trouble to make life worth living.

I know some children of privilege who have never needed to work a day in their lives to survive. Some have purpose in their lives, others do not. A life of indulgence makes a person unhappy, and a life with a purpose makes a person happy. I have seen both in those people I know.

I wasn't born into their circumstances, and I was never sorry I wasn't. I would rather repeat all my past troubles and sorrows before I would take on theirs. Maybe I'm odd, but I actually enjoy my work, and I always get a lot of satisfaction and pleasure from a hard job well done. The hardest toil brings the greatest rewards in one way or another.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:12 PM
 
239 posts, read 150,140 times
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Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I was thinking...if the majority of people in both developing AND developed countries spend the majority of their days just toiling away, doing mostly the same thing day after day, is life really worth living? I know some people really enjoy what they do, but what of the majority who do tiresome, monotonous, physically demanding, boring jobs? Like breaking rocks, growing rice, something like that?

I can already hear people talking about how they're happy, how family, love and stuff makes it worth it....but still...I worked for a year and I felt it was such a drag. Actually no it wasn't too bad, but it was the whole routine of having to wake up so early everyday, how I'd be tired when I got home. And I had to good...I can't imagine a boring office job as an accountant or something, let alone say a factory job. I know I'm spoilt, but I'm also philosophical, both reasons why I wonder about this.

To me such a life hardly seems worth living. That's the sad fact of it. Many animals get to indulge in a lot of lazing around, but most of us are on this treadmill of working. Has civilisation merely increased our workloads? Think of it, if 50% of your life is chores and 50% is pleasure than it 'balances' it out, but it seems most of life is just dull or stressful....I forgot who but someone said long was stretches of boredom punctuated by short flashes of drama... But yes, I agree, the trick is find joy in work, but there's only so many stones you can break before your expression turns into a stony frown...

One must get a sense of pride out of paying their bills each month to make work worthwhile.

Isn't that the reason for working in the first place ?
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:18 PM
 
42,641 posts, read 46,451,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
I was thinking...if the majority of people in both developing AND developed countries spend the majority of their days just toiling away, doing mostly the same thing day after day, is life really worth living? I know some people really enjoy what they do, but what of the majority who do tiresome, monotonous, physically demanding, boring jobs? Like breaking rocks, growing rice, something like that?

I can already hear people talking about how they're happy, how family, love and stuff makes it worth it....but still...I worked for a year and I felt it was such a drag. Actually no it wasn't too bad, but it was the whole routine of having to wake up so early everyday, how I'd be tired when I got home. And I had to good...I can't imagine a boring office job as an accountant or something, let alone say a factory job. I know I'm spoilt, but I'm also philosophical, both reasons why I wonder about this.

To me such a life hardly seems worth living. That's the sad fact of it. Many animals get to indulge in a lot of lazing around, but most of us are on this treadmill of working. Has civilisation merely increased our workloads? Think of it, if 50% of your life is chores and 50% is pleasure than it 'balances' it out, but it seems most of life is just dull or stressful....I forgot who but someone said long was stretches of boredom punctuated by short flashes of drama... But yes, I agree, the trick is find joy in work, but there's only so many stones you can break before your expression turns into a stony frown...
I'd say tose involved in such production has ven raise growing are much more happy than those whop do nothing and are satisfied with what they can get .Man kind s not by definintion happt when not accomlishing something i the main.Why would antowen want to be president if that same perosn coud do less and make more money s the same question. There is always fid ference between epople and that includes thweir goals or lack of them.
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