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Old 03-20-2012, 01:15 AM
 
2,844 posts, read 2,032,262 times
Reputation: 3499
People treat demise of marriage as a cause of all imaginable social ills, but it's quite possible that demise of marriage is not a cause, it's an effect of the social environment. It's hard to imagine that individualistic, self-centered, competitive individuals maximizing returns on their investments can form lasting unions that may prevent an individual from reaching maximum personal gain/freedom & limit his/her "consumer" choices. If we look at human social evolution, it's easy to see that mankind proceeds in the direction of the complete social atomization. Increasingly, individual human atoms cannot form any kind of lasting "compound". Society of the lonely (and centrally controlled) robots
The Trap - 2 - The Lonely Robot - YouTube.

Last edited by RememberMee; 03-20-2012 at 01:34 AM..
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
458 posts, read 195,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Propaganda? I'm not Voice of America, State Department or Talk Radio Head to have a shot on propaganda.
Yes Propaganda is in typical far left propaganda. You don't have to be a member of the government, news anchor, or talk radio head to try and spread it.

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1) Image of the Western consumer society is no longer synonymous with paradise in 2nd and 3rd world. People tasted it, accepted as a unavoidable for now, but few really like commodification & codification of all aspects of existence, rat race, all permeating anxiety, insecurity and fear, stupendous inequality and no trespassing signs on every corner etc.. Ecological and resource limitations cast further doubts on the image and desirability.
First off pure equality which I'm pretty sure is something you espouse as a great thing is BS since no one wants pure equality they want an advantage over others. That is human nature. So the rat race as you put it is due to us being human beings and not due to capitalism because you had rat races in communist countries with others using their advantages over others to try and get to the top. Insecurity and fear are part of the human condition as well and not just western culture which you hate no doubt.

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Perception of American democracy changed quite a bit also. It's no longer perceived as a nearly perfect way to run society on the behalf of the people. Increasingly American democracy is synonymous with the skillful art of media manipulation of the pre-dumbed populace to achieve the goals of the oligarchical elites while avoiding direct & honest repression.
When was American democracy perceived nearly perfectly? Have you ever read political views of politicians and intellectuals in other countries in different time periods? Some of them flat out hated the United States form of government. Not liking the politics of the United States is not something new and has been an issue since before the US was a nation state. Also Europe, Japan, and South Korea, etc. have done shady things politically as well. If you want to see horrible looking "democracy" you should check out what is going on in the EU right now. Also if your an American which you probably are your pre-dumbed comment applies to you as well since you are claiming that all Americans are morons. Which just shows you are an idiot.

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American mass culture (and its domestic clones) no longer perceived as "high art and rebellion" by the previously isolated 2nd & 3rd world (it used to mean a lot to many). Increasingly, mass cult is perceived for what it is - mindless brain filler and illusions for less than bright folks. No, I don't say that mass cult is boycotted or something, it just doesn't mean "another world", it doesn't mean anything except mindless illusion. Reminder, images of another world delivered by mass cult were crucial for demise of USSR
Oh you've got to be kidding me? Comparing the United States to the USSR now are we? How typical. Anyway, as I stated in a previous post the opinion of the United States around the world has actually been improving over the last few years...but I take it your cynicism won't let you admit that. As far as the United States culture not feeling new like something from another world. Gee golly maybe that's because American culture has become so common place around the world?

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Belief in technological fixes, progress, free markets is getting sourer around the world. America is used to represent the idea of scientific management (of everything and everybody) and technological progress. However, Prozac in drinking water, Frankenstein foods on the shelves, plastic McMansions, cheap consumer junk, ugly clothes, disposable people etc. don't inspire awe and confidence. "Free market" is pretty much synonymous with concentration of wealth and rule of oligarchy (everywhere except USA naturally).
Okay cynic I take it you would prefer we all dressed in black like a bunch of emo goth losers moaning about how we hate the world and everyone else including ourselves being full of nothing but hate just like you then? I realize you might not like how the obscenity level in the United States, and people who are materalistic, etc. but for christ sake look at something positive for once.

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I don't think that it's USA changed that much ideologically in the past 50 years. World has changed. "American way" was sold as a panacea to the rest of the world seeking alternatives to "communism" and totalitarianism. Unfortunately, people discovered that magic American pill causes powerful side effects while offering mostly illusions instead of a real cure.
Hey news flash there has never been a utopian world and there never will be. If you believe that there was or ever will be you are just setting yourself up for failure. That doesn't mean you should just accept things that are wrong but it does mean you can't solve ever single problem in the world.

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It appears that potentially deadly side-effects of the American pill are hard to impossible to treat. Disillusionment and disappointment are natural human reactions to reality. Honeymoon of world with America is over, yet, nobody come up with an alternative. Everybody is just muddling through apathetically.
So we should drown in cynicism like you do instead? Sorry, I'll pass on doing that thank you very much.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:42 AM
 
2,844 posts, read 2,032,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Yes Propaganda is in typical far left propaganda. You don't have to be a member of the government, news anchor, or talk radio head to try and spread it.
If you/me don't like an opinion, it doesn't make it propaganda. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the desired result in audience attitudes. Dear, when did you see marginalized "far left" like Parenti, Zinn, Zerzan, Churchill or even Chomsky occupying "wide variety of the corporate controlled media"? Been drinking a lot recently, huh? In all likelihood you didn't even hear those names once. Your kind occupy media 24/7, wage units need proper brainwashing.

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First off pure equality which I'm pretty sure is something you espouse as a great thing is BS since no one wants pure equality they want an advantage over others. That is human nature. So the rat race as you put it is due to us being human beings and not due to capitalism because you had rat races in communist countries with others using their advantages over others to try and get to the top. Insecurity and fear are part of the human condition as well and not just western culture which you hate no doubt.
Sir, in a typical rightwinger fashion you talk to yourself, you don't read, a text just triggers flood of the preconceived conditioning. Did I mention equality, etc.? I mentioned the things that people dislike deeply about their present "free" market condition. They dislike it so much that they forget (and frequently regret) their childish communist era status urges. Yes, I'll give it to you, human are hierarchical status seeking animals. But that's just one aspect of humanity, it's counterbalanced by the need to belong & cooperate. Insecurity and fears I was referring to are integral part of the western economic model, they are not a part of the human condition (if there is such a thing), just ask Amazonian forest dwellers.

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When was American democracy perceived nearly perfectly?
Poland, USSR... circa 1989, for example.

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Have you ever read political views of politicians and intellectuals in other countries in different time periods?
I'm talking about popular sentiments, I'm not talking about talking/writing heads.

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Oh you've got to be kidding me? Comparing the United States to the USSR now are we?
Again, you don't read, a text just triggers preconceived discharge you've been accumulating for a while.

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As far as the United States culture not feeling new like something from another world. Gee golly maybe that's because American culture has become so common place around the world?
The word "Culture" may mean all kind of things to different people. I'm not sure what you mean by "United States Culture", is there such a thing? I meant "mass culture", the kind of culture you watch on TV etc. Mass culture is commercial entertainment products (loaded with sublime conditioning messages) created by very few individuals and centrally distributed to billions of the passive consumers who lost their authentic traditional culture and meanings. There is a thin line between mass culture and propaganda. USA use(d) mass culture very successfully in its foreign affairs. I was referring to the fact that foreign propaganda potential of the American mass culture was decimated since 1989.

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Okay cynic I take it you would prefer we all dressed in black like a bunch of emo goth losers moaning about how we hate the world ... but for christ sake look at something positive for once.
I don't know what your escapade has to do with the things I wrote about, but it appears you are a member of the newest cult in America - the cult of positivity. No matter what, just be positive, and the things will look up. Cult of positivity + MASSIVE use of psychotropic drugs and anti-depressants, those are the factors that shape modern America. Brave new freaking world of the corporate sponsored positivity, it's uniform like cars on Ford conveyor. 7 MILLIONS of kids on psychotropic drugs, no biggies, stay positive. Just imagine Soviets inventing the cult of positivity, Prosac and Ritalin, chances are they would have disbanded KGB.

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Hey news flash there has never been a utopian world and there never will be. If you believe that there was or ever will be you are just setting yourself up for failure.
Common, admit, USA and "free" market capitalism is darn close to your kind of utopia. History must stop here.

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So we should drown in cynicism like you do instead? Sorry, I'll pass on doing that thank you very much.
Your observation on human nature were quite cynical and bleak, yet, you are thoroughly positive about the social & economic systems those rotten humans are subjected to. Very interesting.

Last edited by RememberMee; 03-20-2012 at 03:08 AM..
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:32 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
458 posts, read 195,240 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
If you/me don't like an opinion, it doesn't make it propaganda. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the desired result in audience attitudes. Dear, when did you hear marginalized "far left" like Parenti, Zinn, Zerzan, Churchill or even Chomsky occupying "wide variety of the corporate controlled media"? Been drinking a lot recently, huh? In all likelihood you didn't even hear those names once. Your kind occupy media 24/7, wage units need proper brainwashing.
Churchill was not a far leftist though and Chomsky writes a ton of propaganda while being a hypocrite and working for the government which he claims is evil. You trying to claim that you are more intelligent then me is extremely typical elitism you encounter on the far left when you don't agree with them.


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Sir, in a typical rightwinger fashion you talk to yourself, you don't read, a text just triggers flood of the preconceived conditioning. Did I mention equality, etc.?
Actually, yes you did in your long rant.

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Originally Posted by RememberMee;
rat race, all permeating anxiety, insecurity and fear, stupendous inequality
Try paying attention a little more next time to what you write. I know it was a rant but if your going to criticize me at least do it accurately.

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I mentioned the things that people dislike deeply about their present "free" market condition. They dislike it so much that they forget (and frequently regret) their childish communist era status urges.
Now comes more Anti-Anti-Communism why am I not surprised?

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Yes, I'll give it to you, human are hierarchical status seeking animals. But that's just one aspect of humanity, it's counterbalanced by the need to belong & cooperate.
Human beings also need isolation from others to be healthy as well we are not ants or have a hive mind mentality. How much people need to belong or not really depends on that particular person since some people do literally enjoy being alone more then socializing.

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Insecurity and fears I was referring to are integral part of the western economic model, they are not a part of the human condition (if there is such a thing), just ask Amazonian forest dwellers.
Really? Your saying fear is not natural and is only due to capitalism? So when people get scared and adrenaline is pumping that is due to something else other then fear? Insecurity is also not natural for humans either? I’d like to see some evidence to back up these claims because they are beyond ridiculous.

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Poland, USSR... circa 1989, for example.
Poland regarded (and still does) the United States highly but viewing the United States as near perfect I tend to doubt.

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I'm talking about popular sentiments, I'm not talking about talking/writing heads.
So in other words you can pull whatever you want out of your *** and claim it to be true without having to back it up. Got ya.

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Again, you don't read, a text just triggers preconceived discharge you've been accumulating for a while.
Oh, hardly I've read a few of your other posts and its pretty clear you believe the U.S. to be the great Satan.

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The word "Culture" may mean all kind of things to different people. I'm not sure what you mean by "United States Culture", is there such a thing?
You heard of google right? I know you hate the United States but don't be retarded.

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I meant "mass culture", the kind of culture you watch on TV etc. Mass culture is commercial entertainment products (loaded with sublime conditioning messages) created by very few individuals and centrally distributed to billions of the passive consumers who lost their authentic traditional culture and meanings. There is a thin line between mass culture and propaganda. USA use(d) mass culture very successfully in its foreign affairs. I was referring to the fact that propaganda potential of the American mass culture was decimated since 1989.
Ah, now your claiming bs cultural imperialism. Also American "mass culture" as you put it actually spread past 1989. Google intellectual property and free trade agreements the United States has.

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I don't know what your escapade has to do with the things I wrote about, but it appears you are a member of the newest cult in America - the cult of positivity.
Oh give me break you are clearly full of hate. All of your posts I've read are full of nothing but hate. You don't live in perfect world and your pissed off about it instead of realizing the truth that it will never exist.

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No matter what, just be positive, and the things will look up. Cult of positivity + MASSIVE use of psychotropic drugs and anti-depressants, those are the factors that shape modern America. Brave new freaking world of the corporate sponsored positivity, it's uniform like cars on Ford conveyor. 7 MILLIONS of kids on psychotropic drugs, no biggies, stay positive. Just imagine Soviets inventing the cult of positivity, Prosac and Ritalin, chances are they would have disbanded KGB.
Can you please make coherent sense here? Your rambling about "drugs, positivity, chances are they would have disbanded the KGB" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I know you rant but try to make coherent sense when you do so.

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Common, admit, USA and "free" market capitalism is darn close to your kind of utopia. History must stop here.
If you bothered to read any of my comments I honestly don't believe we live in a utopia nor do I ever believe we will live in one. Since having a utopia is actually impossible since one person's utopia would be another person's hell. Believing otherwise like you do will always set you up for failure and cause you to hate everyone, everything, and yourself which you clearly do.

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Your observation on human nature were quite cynical and bleak, yet, you are thoroughly positive about the social & economic systems those rotten humans are subjected to. Very interesting.
My belief is that human beings are inherently tough capable creatures that are able to survive and adapt. We've survived a global depression, world wars, plagues, natural disasters, etc. We can survive our current situation as well to think otherwise is to be very foolish.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
4,466 posts, read 5,038,903 times
Reputation: 2713
Make sure to keep this on topic, discuss content, not author.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:45 AM
 
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Yes.


This isn't exact, and it is probably off a few years either way. I think the current slide started sometime between the release of Karate Kid II and Karate Kid III. I say this because Karate Kid and Karate Kid II did not have cursing while Karate Kid III did despite being the most juvenile of the first three movies.

I think for much of US history there have been slides followed by climbs or at least stationary periods. For example Roger Ebert reviewed porn movies in the 1970s because at that time "normal" movie theaters in some cities would show porno films. That activity has been unheard of since at least sometime in the 1980s.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:55 AM
 
Location: living on the mighty Columbia
1,831 posts, read 1,203,155 times
Reputation: 3729
American culture was for the longest time connected to the open spaces within it's borders and the resulting need for a vast population increase. Immigration from Europe made for a multi ethnic mix of cultures that made up the total "American culture". Today we are way more assimilated into a "consumer culture" than anything resembling the old mix. Downslide ? I think that would adequately describe the cultural situation here since the fifties. The truth is that we don't have much of a culture now except for that which the world knows about us, NASCAR, BEER, SHOPPING, MOVIES, TV SHOWS, HIP HOP, ETC, that's American culture today, you make the call...
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:26 PM
 
10,054 posts, read 13,873,752 times
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I am currently reading "The Limits of Power" by Andrew Bacevich. Very interesting (and unsettling) on the "American exceptionalism" and imperial reach, while thinking that we are benevolent freedom lovers and just wanna make everyone else happy and free. He points out that this is an element of American culture, certainly political culture, and leads to people's voting patterns, politicians' statements, and military actions. (Bacevich is a professor of history at B.U., a retired military officer, and had a son killed in Iraq in 2007). He is really worth reading even if you're not primarily interested in political and military actions, because he points out how these areas have affected general American thinking and self-identity as a nation. A far cry from culture as "the arts," but very thoughtful about "the water we swim in" as culture.
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:26 PM
 
Location: SoCal - Sherman Oaks & Woodland Hills
12,980 posts, read 18,263,664 times
Reputation: 10491
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Industrial age destroyed extended and nuclear family 400 years ago by forcing both parents to leave their farm/village and to sell their arses for cheap.
Im pretty sure he's not talking about a nuclear family where the mom stays home to keep house. I think he's talking more about women having kids out of wedlock and those kids growing up without their father (uncles and granpas are NOT fathers) to properly influence/teach them in life.

Do I think American "culture" is on a downslide? Not really. I think American education is on a downslide and this actually goes back to the family. Parents need to take responsibility for teaching their children and NOT just leaving it up to the schools. We (all of us) need to do better in teaching young people the right way. No more of this b.s. non-english being spoken in our schools. It should be ONLY english. Also, for higher learning (universities) I think we should charge non U.S. Citizens DOUBLE the normal rate for tuition. Far too many students come here for an education then return to their home counties to compete against us (China, India, etc.).

Again, I think education is the blame and not music videos, video games, or celebs. Education is where we are slipping.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Purgatory
2,667 posts, read 2,323,250 times
Reputation: 2926
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzuMindFu View Post
Im pretty sure he's not talking about a nuclear family where the mom stays home to keep house. I think he's talking more about women having kids out of wedlock and those kids growing up without their father (uncles and granpas are NOT fathers) to properly influence/teach them in life.

Do I think American "culture" is on a downslide? Not really. I think American education is on a downslide and this actually goes back to the family. Parents need to take responsibility for teaching their children and NOT just leaving it up to the schools. We (all of us) need to do better in teaching young people the right way. No more of this b.s. non-english being spoken in our schools. It should be ONLY english. Also, for higher learning (universities) I think we should charge non U.S. Citizens DOUBLE the normal rate for tuition. Far too many students come here for an education then return to their home counties to compete against us (China, India, etc.).

Again, I think education is the blame and not music videos, video games, or celebs. Education is where we are slipping.
Well, teachers & schools can only do so much. The greater issue is that society is on a downward slide, so it's also the parents that are failing to instill morals and respect for others in their children, hence the severe entitlement mentality that you see extremely prevalent in many people under 25.

Music, music videos, video games and celebrities are just a biproduct of our society. Awful music is a symptom rather than a cause. It all represents a cultural low point in not only America, but other countries where this vapid, senseless and ridiculous bulls**t has taken hold. Put it this way, I don't even listen to the radio anymore and I seldom watch television.

I agree that education is vitally important, but so is restoring community spirit, encouraging people to not be so selfish and wasteful.
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