U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-06-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: USA
1,590 posts, read 1,650,195 times
Reputation: 1627

Advertisements

Many times we judge others for doing the same thing we are doing. But for some reason we don't notice our own behavior.

It's just not easy for us to think and to notice things. And that's why there is so much foolish behavior going on.

On the one hand, we could be upset with ourselves. But on the other hand, we could realize that we are doing our best to evolve and to reach an understanding. It's just very difficult and it takes time.

So the subject of tolerance vs. intolerance, surprisingly, also involves the principles of judging the other for the same thing you are doing.

One time, as I was very angry at intolerant people (people who are bigots and are full of prejudices), I realized that I was being like THEM in some sense.

How are THEY being? They don't understand the other side. If they understood, they wouldn't be angry.

So then why am I angry at THEM? Because the same problem applies to me: I do not understand them.

So in reality, tolerant people and intolerant people are affected by the same disorder/bug/virus: lack of understanding of the other side and letting your emotions take control, and lack of reasonable thinking.

Intolerant people are angry at those who are "different" from them because they don't understand them. It's much easier to let anger take control over you rather than try to understand the other side.

However, tolerant people are angry also. Tolerant people are angry at intolerant people. Because of the same reason. Instead of stopping and trying to think and trying to understand the other side, they just let emotions and anger take control (because it's the easier thing to do).

It's extremely difficult to try to understand the other person's view when you are angry. And so most people cannot do it.

And so we have both, tolerant and intolerant people being angry and at war. Why? Because of the lack of understanding the other side.

Granted, that it's too difficult to try to understand a bad person. (or a person who seems bad in your eyes).

But can fire fight fire? Is being angry at intolerant people will help them to become tolerant?

Is being angry at a drug addict will help him to let go of drugs? Or will acceptance and love help him more?

So, being tolerant of intolerant people is the first step in fighting intolerance.

Understanding WHY they are being intolerant is the second step in fighting intolerance.

Understanding our human weaknesses and how hard it is to fight our own programming (the way we were taught to think over all these years) is yet another step that would bring us closer to fighting intolerance.

Showing love towards the intolerant and to gently instruct them in their false views on life is yet another step in fighting intolerance.

It is easy? No. But reaching good things is never easy. Reaching better times sometimes happens at the cost of lives of many people.


Because if you accuse someone out of anger, will they listen and change? Most likely not. But if you take time to learn about them and to understand them, and then to gently instruct them, will they learn? Possibly...

For example, if you were taught all your life that these slaves are not human, and don't need to be treated as human, then you grow up to be a person who doesn't treat slaves too well. But is it really your fault that you don't see these people as human? No. It's noone's fault. The people who came before them were also taught the same thing, by the people who came before them. So who is at fault here?

Do we have to put blame on anyone? Can't we just realize that life is evolving and is trying hard to "find its way". It's trying to find its way by trying different things. Some of them are horrible. But "it" (personifying life) doesn't know it. It is learning. If we understand that, we would focus on finding solutions to the problem, rather than simply being angry at everyone.

Most people now treat animals as "less than human". But the future generations may look back at us and say: how inhuman were they, how barbaric.... But do we see ourselves as bad for not treating animals equally as humans? No. We don't. We think it's normal to be this way.

So the people who treat others in a bad way ALSO think it's normal to be that way. They also do not realize that there is something wrong with their behavior. Because they were programmed by something or someone to think a certain way.

So we should not PUNISH each other for being like this (damaged possibly), instead we should try to find ways to reprogramm that behavior. We should see all of us as victims of bad programming and try to help those who got stuck there (infected by the bad programming).

If your leg becomes infected, do you get angry at it or try to find a solution to make it well again...?

So what do you think?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-07-2012, 04:58 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,683 posts, read 43,224,926 times
Reputation: 11862
Truly insightful and deep musings, I must say, you certainly are the type of person I'd want running the show!

It's true, no one has the monopoly on tolerance: all of us are intolerant in our own way, and it takes someone who is very objective to be able to see that what is usually seen as a righteous hatred of intolerance is, sometimes, a form of intolerance itself. I'm not defending those who are racist, sexist, homophobic or whatever - I know that blind hatred and intolerance is when I see it, but the point you raise about trying to UNDERSTANDING intolerance - or rather, understand why this particular person is so intolerant, and working through THAT, instead of flatly condemning, is that applies to all of us.

It reminds me of the old saying, the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: ๏̯͡๏﴿ Gwinnett-That's a Civil Matter-County
2,117 posts, read 5,101,011 times
Reputation: 3502
I used to be intolerant of plastic condiment bottles.
I felt very strongly that ketchup, mayo, et cetera should only be available in glass bottles. When glass bottles started disappearing on the store shelves, I got mad. The way I spooned ketchup out of the widemouth jars it used to come in was going to be a thing of the past. I thought there should be a law banning plastic bottles. I was so angry that you could go to any restaurant and find glass condiment bottles but they were no longer available in the store.

I was one of the last holdouts when it came to mayonnaise. I stopped buying miracle whip years ago when they did away with the glass bottles. I had been buying plain mayo in the tiny glass bottles because that's all there was that was still in glass. Even though that was more expensive to do that.

One day I go to reach for a jar of mayo, and there was only one left on the shelf and it was open. Yuck. Clearly this too was coming to an end, just like the ketchup, mustard, BBQ sauce and salad dressing before it. So I finally bit the bullet and bought a plastic squeeze bottle of mayo. And I did so kicking and screaming but it was either that or no mayo.

It didn't take long for me to realize the benefits of mayo in squeeze bottles. It was better safety sealed and you just squeeze it out. No knife required. It couldn't be easier. And it was cheaper. And took up less space in the fridge.

That was about 6 months ago. I tried plastic and I didn't look back. Even though there's been glass bottles, I never bought another one. I selected the plastic on my own free will and even bought some miracle whip in plastic bottles. This protest was now over.

The moral of the story is if people are open minded and listen to other ideas, they will be accepting of other ways of doing things. If people feel like their entire way of life is disappearing, they won't. That's why so many modern debates are filled with arguments of traditional ways of doing things being destroyed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2012, 02:18 PM
 
Location: USA
1,590 posts, read 1,650,195 times
Reputation: 1627
Quote:
Originally Posted by cittic10 View Post
The moral of the story is if people are open minded and listen to other ideas, they will be accepting of other ways of doing things. If people feel like their entire way of life is disappearing, they won't. That's why so many modern debates are filled with arguments of traditional ways of doing things being destroyed.

Yes...and I think it would help us overall, if we could find compassion for those people who are panicking (emotionally) about their way of life disappearing. If we can understand that it's hurtful to them, then we wouldn't be so angry at them for not accepting new things. And then we would be able to help them better if we are not angry.

But it is quite sad sometimes when you are used to a certain product and it's been the joy of your life for many years and then they stop making it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2012, 06:34 PM
 
3,349 posts, read 2,561,502 times
Reputation: 1699
Quote:
Originally Posted by cittic10 View Post
I used to be intolerant of plastic condiment bottles.
I felt very strongly that ketchup, mayo, et cetera should only be available in glass bottles. When glass bottles started disappearing on the store shelves, I got mad. The way I spooned ketchup out of the widemouth jars it used to come in was going to be a thing of the past. I thought there should be a law banning plastic bottles. I was so angry that you could go to any restaurant and find glass condiment bottles but they were no longer available in the store.

I was one of the last holdouts when it came to mayonnaise. I stopped buying miracle whip years ago when they did away with the glass bottles. I had been buying plain mayo in the tiny glass bottles because that's all there was that was still in glass. Even though that was more expensive to do that.

One day I go to reach for a jar of mayo, and there was only one left on the shelf and it was open. Yuck. Clearly this too was coming to an end, just like the ketchup, mustard, BBQ sauce and salad dressing before it. So I finally bit the bullet and bought a plastic squeeze bottle of mayo. And I did so kicking and screaming but it was either that or no mayo.

It didn't take long for me to realize the benefits of mayo in squeeze bottles. It was better safety sealed and you just squeeze it out. No knife required. It couldn't be easier. And it was cheaper. And took up less space in the fridge.

That was about 6 months ago. I tried plastic and I didn't look back. Even though there's been glass bottles, I never bought another one. I selected the plastic on my own free will and even bought some miracle whip in plastic bottles. This protest was now over.

The moral of the story is if people are open minded and listen to other ideas, they will be accepting of other ways of doing things. If people feel like their entire way of life is disappearing, they won't. That's why so many modern debates are filled with arguments of traditional ways of doing things being destroyed.
This whole "open minded" thing can go too far though....

What do you define as the limit to being open minded? Any limit?

If you are comletely open minded, then you accept the point of view of people who kill, steal, rape, molest and more,

If you are openminded about, say, sexual orientation.... then fine, but there are limits to the open minded thing

Some things should never be tolerated though
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-07-2012, 10:14 PM
 
Location: USA
1,590 posts, read 1,650,195 times
Reputation: 1627
\


Quote:
Originally Posted by A&M_Indie_08 View Post
This whole "open minded" thing can go too far though....

What do you define as the limit to being open minded? Any limit?

If you are comletely open minded, then you accept the point of view of people who kill, steal, rape, molest and more,

If you are openminded about, say, sexual orientation.... then fine, but there are limits to the open minded thing

Some things should never be tolerated though

Verbal communication could be quite difficult and limiting. I see now how something I said could be seen another way. When I said that we should be tolerant, I guess that was the wrong way to say it. I guess tolerant in my case meant: to be understanding of the situation, while not believing that it's a correct behavior.

We should NOT agree with the behavior that we think is bad.

If you believe that killing is wrong, then of course you should discourage such behavior in yourself and in others. But if you understand WHY this person killed someone, it can help you to deal with the situation in a more productive and fruit bearing manner. When we have an understanding and compassion for people, they respond much better to that approach than to anger.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2012, 02:26 PM
 
Location: West Texas
2,441 posts, read 5,251,022 times
Reputation: 3099
I don't believe that just because one person doesn't approve of a certain thing, that person should be labeled intolerant. Additionally, intolerance shouldn't automatically become synonomous with non-understanding.

I find the need for society to disect and separate and label different demographics more troubling than any concept of tolerance or intolerance. I am one of those "intolerant" people because there's many things in present day society that are not popular (I mean socially popular, not media shove it in your face and call you names if you don't agree popular). And, because I don't agree with them, it's easier to call me intolerant - and associate me into a demographic opposite those that are in a different spectrum.

Debate and compromise, and even the art of agreeing to disagree are terms that have gone by the wayside. It's easier to let the anger get the best of you, throw names and ad hominem attacks than to agree to disagree or find a compromise.

Most issues are based on societal norms. There are those that go with societal norms, and those that go against it. Very rarely are there any that straddle that fence. But, we have to make a decision, and then stand by to be labeled by that decision.

I understand... I just choose not to condone/agree/kowtow. Does that make me intolerant, or another intolerant for not allowing me to have my own personal feelings that differ from theirs?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2012, 01:40 AM
 
1,846 posts, read 2,644,175 times
Reputation: 2489
Directed towards the OP..

I agree somewhat with your post however it seems as if enabling seems to be more along the lines that you posted..Correct me if I am wrong, since I do not KNOW you, your standpoint in it’s entirety and so forth.

Tolerance is indeed a wonderful thing and I agree with you the paradox that exists with tolerant people..the tendency that some tolerant people to have “How could they get upset at this person whom has no control over their situation” And then you have the tolerant person being intolerant of another?
And you have your basic non empathetic individual whom cannot understand anything outside of who they are now, their social circle, their socio-economic status and so forth, upbringing and so forth.

I cannot pin point the exact behaviors that you are referring to however you did make a reference to drugs..
I will touch on several situations maybe this is what you are stating?

There will be some individuals that are working in detox? Have been users themselves and they do not understand why recovery is so hard for others? They know that they themselves have been there, meaning dire straits and they have hit rock bottom, had an epiphany and are sober .. They are dealing with a repeat offender and have no tolerance?

You have some individuals coming from domestic violence and they are reluctant to leave the abuser and they have kids, they have had trips to the ER and numerous CPS reports against them for failureto protect? And you being a previus survivor of DV for the life of you cannot determine why this person wishes to stay in this toxi, harmful, possibly deadly situation?

This is different than in tolerace because both examples know what it takes, know that anything is possible, they do not despise this other person..
It is different, they know the possibilities, it is called Counter transference. This means that because of dealing with this “client” they are faced with who they useto be, they see the way out, the potential if only they adhered to what they told them.
It is not “judging” It is more like HURTING for this other person , seeing that this persons choices are not going to allow them to better themselves.
It is like telling a child not touch a stove when it is hot because it is going to burn but watching them do it anyway, it kills them to see them do this. Because they care abiut them.
It is like watching a replay movie of their life as this person they are trying to help, advice and save go and in the same footsteps.
This a lot different than intolerance!
The intolerant person calls the type out the gate, does not wish to be part of the solution but to take away the option for recovery,
The intolerant person DOES not educate themselves, the reasons, the science and the mental aspects. They do not care, all they care about is that it does not touch their community or the budget, does not raise taxes and so forth.
The tolerant person? Attempts, tries..but knows the adage..”If I am working harder than you to gain a result that betters your quality life? Something is wrong” Boundaries are a part of tolerance after goals have been set.. The hardest part that some view as cruel..
But are needed…” If you do not adhere to these boundaries? You may no longer be a part of my life, I will no longer support your lifestyle, I will no longer HELP you to continue to live like this.”
I am referring to drug/alcohol abuse, DV and mental illness btw and am trained and qualified in all..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-27-2012, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Tacoma, WA
223 posts, read 230,147 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
I understand... I just choose not to condone/agree/kowtow. Does that make me intolerant, or another intolerant for not allowing me to have my own personal feelings that differ from theirs?
Completely this.

OP, additionally what do you mean by 'being intolerant'? I, for one, will never feel guilty about my thoughts and my feelings. Both are very private and when one person starts intruding on how someone else feels, that is overstepping personal boundaries. The way you behave is what is important.

I have a recent beef and it is this: It seems as though lately, if you are not dripping with sympathy for the problems of every John and Jill despite the fact they are 100% responsible for their problems, you are considered unsympathetic and intolerant. I call BS on that. I am indifferent to most people, to be honest. If they are doing something I don't like, I just avoid them. This includes members of my own family. I have my own small group of people I surround myself with and that is my life. I work for a criminal court mostly in the position of 'public service' and I have been labeled unsympathetic and intolerant. No, actually I am indifferent and matter of fact, and I don't care about those people who are complete strangers to me. I won't get involved in their pity parties. In my opinion, the meaning of intolerant has gotten skewed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2012, 02:52 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,370,394 times
Reputation: 1944
Personally, I don't tolerate because I believe the other party benefits from this more than I do. I would much rather compromise if I had to deal with the other person because that requires both parties to be on the same page with each other.

Trying to help drug addicts, abusers, liars, etc. is not an option. I care about myself too much and I care about that other person enough that I don't want to start hating them for abusing me or taking advantage of me.

I also enjoy being productive in society so trying to "help" them is not an option for me.

Most of my experience with people wanting me to tolerate comes from family relations more than anything else.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Great Debates
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top