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Old 05-20-2012, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
11,760 posts, read 5,768,469 times
Reputation: 5289
Default Do Americans love war, or are we just apathetic to its consequences?

No other country on earth spends as much money on defense as the United States, in fact, unless it has recently changed, the United States, the richest nation on earth has spent more yearly on "defense" than the rest of the world combined, adding trillions to our crushing national debt.

We had nothing to gain by being in Vietnam, and reports of rampant corruption were evident from the time of our earliest involvement. Over 3 million Vietnamese died from our invasion. We blatantly lied to the world by inventing a reason to gain access to Iraqi oil reserves (Mission Accomplished) and in the process ripped apart an entire country, bringing terror, chaos, and hundreds of thousands of deaths. We have been in Afghanistan as long as we were in Vietnam and have accomplished the same there as we did in Vietnam, the local population resents our presence and the death and destruction our presence brings.

Is it careful and deliberate inculcation of the populace by the military industrial complex and its willing vassals in the media and the White House of the importance of defense by inventing a common enemy, like communism or terrorism? The days of needing a military bulwark to millions of Soviet troops are over. Much of American manufacturing has moved to China and they are now a close business partner of the U.S.

Support for Afghanistan today mirrors that of support for Vietnam in 1970, around 27% (I don't know who those people are, or their reasoning for supporting it) but why do we continually ignore the consequences of wars and the suffering, fear, and death that results? Ignorance, apathy, xenophobia, or something else?

There is something wrong with a nation that does not care it continually kills innocent people in their own country on a daily basis. There is something wrong with America.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Land Of Moose, Blueberries and Chickadees
9,709 posts, read 4,648,992 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
No other country on earth spends as much money on defense as the United States, in fact, unless it has recently changed, the United States, the richest nation on earth has spent more yearly on "defense" than the rest of the world combined, adding trillions to our crushing national debt.

We had nothing to gain by being in Vietnam, and reports of rampant corruption were evident from the time of our earliest involvement. Over 3 million Vietnamese died from our invasion. We blatantly lied to the world by inventing a reason to gain access to Iraqi oil reserves (Mission Accomplished) and in the process ripped apart an entire country, bringing terror, chaos, and hundreds of thousands of deaths. We have been in Afghanistan as long as we were in Vietnam and have accomplished the same there as we did in Vietnam, the local population resents our presence and the death and destruction our presence brings.

Is it careful and deliberate inculcation of the populace by the military industrial complex and its willing vassals in the media and the White House of the importance of defense by inventing a common enemy, like communism or terrorism? The days of needing a military bulwark to millions of Soviet troops are over. Much of American manufacturing has moved to China and they are now a close business partner of the U.S.

Support for Afghanistan today mirrors that of support for Vietnam in 1970, around 27% (I don't know who those people are, or their reasoning for supporting it) but why do we continually ignore the consequences of wars and the suffering, fear, and death that results? Ignorance, apathy, xenophobia, or something else?

There is something wrong with a nation that does not care it continually kills innocent people in their own country on a daily basis. There is something wrong with America.
Agree. As to why people continually support the wars, (not to be confused with supporting soldiers, you can support soldiers but not a war), they believe what they are told. They actually believe that bombing the crap out of these countries is going to keep us safe.

It doesn't matter to show them history. It doesn't matter to have them listen to the words of CIA agents who were in charge of certain units, they think those people are crackpots. They believe Reagan's words of "peace through strength" and have not let go of that attitude since.

They claim to be fighting, (as they sit in their chairs at home), for our ancestors and forefathers but fail to realize that our forefathers were not in to "peace through strength".

They have a bully attitude. I have not yet met a single person who shares my political beliefs, who supports these wars who is not an arrogant, obnoxious bully in real life. Not a single one.

Granted, I do not know all who share my political beliefs, I do know hundreds, maybe past a thousand or two. No, I am not friends with them all, they are acquaintances.

I've even had them jump down on me for not supporting these wars telling me that I hate soldiers. I WAS a damn soldier. I do not support needless wars, end of story.

All I ever hear is, "peace through superior fire power" and telling other nations, with a jpeg, "How about a nice cup of 'Shut the F*** Up!'". Oh and, "We should just bomb the entire country and turn it in to a parking lot". (A second favorite is a sheet of glass.) I have never shared that mindset and have had people, even on this forum, tell me I'm not a Republican because of it. Whatever.

I'm an American and I want this country to be safe. Pounding around the globe and beating people about is not how you make us safer. Securing our borders and protecting our borders, having trade agreements with other countries and not attacking unless are threatened with attack is how you keep this country safe. That is not "retreating". That is not "cowardly".

Might does not make right.

" I do not believe war the most certain means of enforcing principles. Those peaceable coercions which are in the power of every nation, if undertaken in concert and in time of peace, are more likely to produce the desired effect."

" I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind."

" War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses."

" War is as much a punishment to the punisher as to the sufferer."

All ~Thomas Jefferson
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:59 AM
ino
 
Location: Way beyond the black stump.
681 posts, read 1,252,011 times
Reputation: 939
Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
No other country on earth spends as much money on defense as the United States, in fact, unless it has recently changed, the United States, the richest nation on earth has spent more yearly on "defense" than the rest of the world combined, adding trillions to our crushing national debt.

We had nothing to gain by being in Vietnam, and reports of rampant corruption were evident from the time of our earliest involvement. Over 3 million Vietnamese died from our invasion. We blatantly lied to the world by inventing a reason to gain access to Iraqi oil reserves (Mission Accomplished) and in the process ripped apart an entire country, bringing terror, chaos, and hundreds of thousands of deaths. We have been in Afghanistan as long as we were in Vietnam and have accomplished the same there as we did in Vietnam, the local population resents our presence and the death and destruction our presence brings.

Is it careful and deliberate inculcation of the populace by the military industrial complex and its willing vassals in the media and the White House of the importance of defense by inventing a common enemy, like communism or terrorism? The days of needing a military bulwark to millions of Soviet troops are over. Much of American manufacturing has moved to China and they are now a close business partner of the U.S.

Support for Afghanistan today mirrors that of support for Vietnam in 1970, around 27% (I don't know who those people are, or their reasoning for supporting it) but why do we continually ignore the consequences of wars and the suffering, fear, and death that results? Ignorance, apathy, xenophobia, or something else?

There is something wrong with a nation that does not care it continually kills innocent people in their own country on a daily basis. There is something wrong with America.
"Do Americans love war"? In a word - Yes. And they suck its allies into lost causes as well. Vietnam was a lost cause from the very first day America, and its allies, set foot there, Afghanistan is like watching a bad replay. One has to wonder about this 'patriotism' BS?

And it's not only American manufacturing that's going to China. The irony is, as China is becoming more wealthy they are building up on military, armaments, defence etc etc, and who now is getting concerned about that? You got it, America and it's allies. Makes sense to someone I guess, just danged if I know who?

Praps that's what global trading is all about? Build 'em up with our money and education, then shoot 'em down? Keeps the cycle going.

"Why does America continually ignore...etc etc"? Like pre-school kids in a playground, drop the shorts for show and tell to see who's got the biggest willy.

There's something wrong with every Nation who partakes in this - 'sport?'. I'm waiting for the day when western heads of government and other war mongers get put on trial for war crimes??? After all, isn't that the fate of the losers?
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
14,264 posts, read 11,349,518 times
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Well I guess I'll be the first to step into the gauntlet. We pour more money into helping other countries around the world than probably the rest of the world combined. Hell, our private sectors probably give more money than most countries.

Vietnam was a mistake, but I was not alive for it, I am not going to continually bash my country for something that I wasn't even alive to see. I think the hippies are just as pathetic though.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan was not all that bad. It is terrible to see people dying, but we really did make a regime change for the good there. People who want to bash the United States love to overlook just how terrible Sadaam Hussein was to the people of Iraq, they want to try to paint him out to be this poor victim of the terrible United States. He had over 200,000 of his people killed. I have talked to many Iraqis who are in full support of the war and are very happy with how things will change because of how bad he was. I had a roommate who said you could really see the change in Iraq, he was out there in the military.

Afghanistan is another country that was being run by thugs and the people there were completely being taken advantage of.

War is a terrible thing, and it is really sick that we have to have it.. but there's just not too much we can do to avoid these things. If USA just sits back and remains dormant and never does anything internationally, it will only be a matter of time until someone else with much worse intentions starts coming out to do some real damage.

I am glad I live in a country that has the best army and best defense system in the world. I am thankful to live in such an awesome country.
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Southwest Desert
4,044 posts, read 2,496,207 times
Reputation: 3224
As parents we tell our kids not to fight. We tell our kids that they need to learn how to work out their differences in civil and respectful ways...Yet this "advice" is meaningless when it comes to fighting wars. I thought about this when I was a kid. And I questioned my parents about it.. Why is it okay for adults (and countries) to resort to violence when they have differences? What type of role-models are we providing for our kids?
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
11,925 posts, read 10,493,390 times
Reputation: 13072
I think it is a shame that since the beginning of time "man" has been fighting.

From the Romans to today, we have been fighting.

Why???

Why are we always fighting.???


The Mid east countries, they are still walking around in dirt, wearing sheets, yet they have high tech weapons. Why?


Why do the Mid Eastern places, Yemen, Iraq, why do they hate us?



Religion

Religion has been the problem of "man" from day one.


We need to be self sufficient, like other countries.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:43 AM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
29,059 posts, read 14,879,040 times
Reputation: 19823
Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
No other country on earth spends as much money on defense as the United States, in fact, unless it has recently changed, the United States, the richest nation on earth has spent more yearly on "defense" than the rest of the world combined, adding trillions to our crushing national debt.

We had nothing to gain by being in Vietnam, and reports of rampant corruption were evident from the time of our earliest involvement. Over 3 million Vietnamese died from our invasion. We blatantly lied to the world by inventing a reason to gain access to Iraqi oil reserves (Mission Accomplished) and in the process ripped apart an entire country, bringing terror, chaos, and hundreds of thousands of deaths. We have been in Afghanistan as long as we were in Vietnam and have accomplished the same there as we did in Vietnam, the local population resents our presence and the death and destruction our presence brings.

Is it careful and deliberate inculcation of the populace by the military industrial complex and its willing vassals in the media and the White House of the importance of defense by inventing a common enemy, like communism or terrorism? The days of needing a military bulwark to millions of Soviet troops are over. Much of American manufacturing has moved to China and they are now a close business partner of the U.S.

Support for Afghanistan today mirrors that of support for Vietnam in 1970, around 27% (I don't know who those people are, or their reasoning for supporting it) but why do we continually ignore the consequences of wars and the suffering, fear, and death that results? Ignorance, apathy, xenophobia, or something else?

There is something wrong with a nation that does not care it continually kills innocent people in their own country on a daily basis. There is something wrong with America.
I don't know about apathy. In my town, there were protests on a regular basis (once or twice/month) to the Iraq war throughout its duration. There was a march on Washington of 200,000 people that was under-reported in the news. If you fear the country is apathetic, write your representatives in Congress to end US involvement in foreign wars.

I was told that Eisenhower said upfront that the US was going into Vietnam because of oil. Interesting that he was also the one to invent the term "military-industrial complex" and warn about it.

Terrorism wasn't "invented" as some kind of slogan, it's real. How best to deal with it is the question. Clinton was the first one to warn about it, and about the need to address it, but no one knew what he was talking about. They found out a couple of years later. By the time terrorism came to American soil (remember, embassies had already been hit years earlier), France had been dealing with terrorism for decades. It wasn't something the US invented. We should be studying the French model, to find out what they've been doing to combat it all this time. Intelligence is key. Our intelligence system was a boondoggle in that regard (the Valerie Plame incident).

America's foreign wars are going to destroy America if a more rational and measured way to deal with terrorism isn't found.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Land Of Moose, Blueberries and Chickadees
9,709 posts, read 4,648,992 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by burgler09 View Post
Well I guess I'll be the first to step into the gauntlet. We pour more money into helping other countries around the world than probably the rest of the world combined. Hell, our private sectors probably give more money than most countries.

Vietnam was a mistake, but I was not alive for it, I am not going to continually bash my country for something that I wasn't even alive to see. I think the hippies are just as pathetic though.

The war in Iraq and Afghanistan was not all that bad. It is terrible to see people dying, but we really did make a regime change for the good there. People who want to bash the United States love to overlook just how terrible Sadaam Hussein was to the people of Iraq, they want to try to paint him out to be this poor victim of the terrible United States. He had over 200,000 of his people killed. I have talked to many Iraqis who are in full support of the war and are very happy with how things will change because of how bad he was. I had a roommate who said you could really see the change in Iraq, he was out there in the military.

Afghanistan is another country that was being run by thugs and the people there were completely being taken advantage of.

War is a terrible thing, and it is really sick that we have to have it.. but there's just not too much we can do to avoid these things. If USA just sits back and remains dormant and never does anything internationally, it will only be a matter of time until someone else with much worse intentions starts coming out to do some real damage.

I am glad I live in a country that has the best army and best defense system in the world. I am thankful to live in such an awesome country.
Who helped the Ba'ath party get in to power? The CIA.

Who helped them in their war against Iran? The US

Who removed them from their "terrorist" list? Reagan

When that happened, who then gave money, weapons and support to Iraq? The US

Who gave them the helicopters which were later used to gas their own soldiers? The US

Who allowed other countries to support Iraq with weapons in the early 80s? The US

Who, in the early 80s, went to visit Saddam in order to have closer relations? Rumsfeld

In the mid 80s, who gave Iraq secret intelligence to help fight Iran? The CIA

Who gave computers to Iraq to use in their weapons labs? Just under half came from the US.

Who shipped 70 times to Iraq, biological cultures? The US

National Security Directive 26, ever heard of that? It was a 1 billion dollar loan. Who gave that to Iraq? The US

I could go on...the facts are out there, all over the place. We should never have meddled in the first place. We built him up, helped him get in power, supported him and with what we gave him, he killed his own people. And now you say we did right by going in there and getting rid of him by using our own troops, many of whom lost their lives, many Iraqis lost their lives...we helped create that monster. I love this country but I'm not so blind as to think that this country is angelic.

The people we elect do NOT always act in OUR best interest.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:49 AM
 
Location: State of Relaxation
29,059 posts, read 14,879,040 times
Reputation: 19823
To the Wolves' list, may I add: who helped arm and finance Osama Bin Laden?
The US has a history of creating strongmen (Manuel Noriega in Panama, Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire/Congo) and organizing coups (Guatemala, and the more recent events in Honduras, among others) that only backfire and result in more chaos that then requires military assistance to address. And ultimately these efforts collapse or come back to haunt us.
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:46 PM
ino
 
Location: Way beyond the black stump.
681 posts, read 1,252,011 times
Reputation: 939
@Three Wolves and Ruth4Truth...

These are but a few of the reasons public opinion around the globe is turning against the US, 'patriots?' seem to be oblivious to what their 'patriotism?' entails. The patriot act is just a means to strip a nations peoples of more civil rights under the guise of protecting those same people.

I love my country as well, but I will never call myself a patriot, I believe in, and value my freedom more than that. A proud Australian maybe, but never a 'patriot?'. Patriotism to me is just another word for oppression.

More and more people around the globe are slowly but surely becoming more aware of the 'Oligarchy' which is painfully evident in the western world.
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