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The definition of Westerner seems to vary depending on who you ask. My friends from China always refer to me as a westerner. As I live in America, which is part of The West, I never questioned their definition of my identity.
But then I realized that many these friends from China don't consider other Asians living in America to be Westerners, even though some of them have been in the States for generations. This implies that to at least some people in the world, Westerner implies someone who has genetic ties to European peoples.
What do you think? What is the criteria for being a westerner to you all?
Is it being White? Is it believing in a form of government? Is it being Christian? Jewish? Secular? Are African Americans Westerners?
My own views on the subject are still being shaped. Maybe you all can enlighten me.
I learned in Anthro that a westerner is any person with origins in Europe, specifically western Europe. Hence the name "westerner."
In my understanding, westerners are whites with origins in Italy, France, Spain, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Portugal, Belgium, Canada, Switzerland, and US whites.
This is probably what was behind the posts that implied that Latin American countries with a large Indigenous population might not be considered "Western", compared to those with only a small percentage of Native population.
The traditional cultural definition of "westerner" meant someone whose socio-cultural background mainly derived from Greco-Romanism and its later resurrections during the Renaissance and so forth. So for instance, Israel is often considered "western" by this cultural definition despite being neither mainly Christian nor in Europe, since its culture is intertwined with western history going back to Roman times. Meanwhile, Turkey is not considered western, since its Eastern Roman Empire heritage was supplanted by the Ottomans and their eastern/Islamic culture, which did not have a shared history with western antiquity.
Similarly, there are quite a few South Americans who would be considered cultural westerners (many of the best-known writers from South America work inside of what we'd call the "western tradition"), while others would not be, even if they speak some amount of Spanish, since their culture is derived more from pre-Colombian and syncretic traditions than Greco-Romanism.
At the same time, it would be possible for someone to become "a westerner" through education in the classical tradition. Quechua-speaking natives in the 1600's who went to seminary and learned Latin and became priests certainly became "westerners" in a way, even if they returned to their home villages.
The traditional cultural definition of "westerner" meant someone whose socio-cultural background mainly derived from Greco-Romanism and its later resurrections during the Renaissance and so forth.
I agree with this statement, especially with the requirement of Renaissance. In my view the definition of westerner has changed over time. In the past it was more geographic and religious and Greece (or Greco-Roman) related whereas now it is more cultural.
In my view a modern westerner also has these values/qualities :
- person/society capable of rational thinking and administration
- therefore they can gather around values that benefit them as a society over long-term, whereas this may be nonbeneficial in short term as a person
- comfortable with abstract values as a person and can bring these into governmental structures
- has well developed values of gender equality
- has well developed values of natural conservation
- has an artistic worldview (as a society) to some degree and will not create ugly cities
- quality is more important than quantity
I think the last one is important although it may not sound so. Now I see giant buildings being erected in many countries of the east including Istanbul, Turkey where I live. In these countries these are a source of pride and it makes me wonder why abstract, social values are not preferable.
...Russia/Turkey/China prefer to take pride in improving their human rights
...Dubai/Qatar take pride in improving women's rights
...Islamic countries taking pride in improved scientific research
and so on.
One important note to add : Previously it was noted that Muslims are not Westerners. I agree to some point with this statement but I wish to ask "How do you know that a person is Muslim ?" Many people, especially westerners, take one's birth place or nationality as a tester whereas there are tens of millions of non-Muslims who are being taken as Muslims and probably over 100 million mild Muslims that believe in the stated values above.
"For all its resource-sucking rapacity, America reigns in our living rooms and at our work desk, at the cinemas and in the ballpark. The world feasts on its offerings. For all the bragging about their growing economies, India and China, crucibles of great civilisations, are but huge reservoirs of manpower, able only to mass produce, imitate, or service American innovation."
Pretty good description of the virtues of the West, particularly as typified by the US, in contrast to non-Western cultures.
I see your point but let me suggest that US innovation also results from these two factors :
- USA is a county of immigration, especially they received Jewish German immigrants during WWII that vastly improved them in science and technology. And they have long been attracting Russian and Chinese mathematicians, physicists and so on during the last decades. Given your example, I guess I can note that Apple's chief designer is British.
- US citizens are less rooted than most others. It is normal for one to move several times across the country (or the world) during their lifetime for family, school, career or retirement purposes. Many people in other parts of the world rarely do so. Greater family is more important and people choose to stay closer to kins and friends. This also brings a career sacrifice within itself because the individual would no longer go and find the best professional environment that would maximize her capabilities. British people (like Apple's chief designer) may travel more but Italians, French and Spanish for example are quite local people.
I also doubt the overall US population possess the virtues that you described.
- The quality of this text, prose and reasoning within my (or your) post is higher than the average output of an educated "American" even though English is not my native language and also I did not show great attention to my English while writing.
- When you go into issues such as evolution/creationism, or about their favorite programmes (i.e., the Jerry Springer show) you will have a better understanding of the values of the standard American public which is markedly different than that of a European.
I see your point but let me suggest that US innovation also results from these two factors :
- USA is a county of immigration, especially they received Jewish German immigrants during WWII that vastly improved them in science and technology. And they have long been attracting Russian and Chinese mathematicians, physicists and so on during the last decades. Given your example, I guess I can note that Apple's chief designer is British.
I also doubt the overall US population possess the virtues that you described.
- The quality of this text, prose and reasoning within my (or your) post is higher than the average output of an educated "American" even though English is not my native language and also I did not show great attention to my English while writing.
- When you go into issues such as evolution/creationism, or about their favorite programmes (i.e., the Jerry Springer show) you will have a better understanding of the values of the standard American public which is markedly different than that of a European.
1. I think all nations could potentially produce brilliant scientists. Why would some choose to come to the USA rather than stay home? You would have to ask them but, it speaks volumes about the US's greatness compared to other places.
2. Apple's FOUNDER is American.
3. The Jerry Springer show represents the most extreme cases in US society. That's the reason they are on television. If they had ordinary lives, nobody would watch and the show would be cancelled. However I will say that at least they are interesting...whereas you probably couldn't say that about the people in your country...just very dull, boring, all do the same thing, day after day after day, while dreaming of seeing the USA and watching our news. Not interesting.
China, Japan, Korea and much of the East has very little cultural and racial diversity within many of the countries that comprise the Far East. The distances in that region are also extreme; some of the area are vast, while others are minuscule, and the area has a lot of natural barriers that naturally inhibit ease of movement between one country and another.
It's no surprise, then, why the Chinese, and even more, the Japanese, tend to think alike. America is a nation of mutts- we came from everywhere, and once we arrived, we rubbed shoulders with everyone who came before.
The ways we all brought with us when we came stayed with each of us in part, and the other part became blended with all the other ways all the others brought with them. We learned how to integrate, assimilate, and still retain part of our origins all at the same time from the very beginning out of necessity, so for us, disagreement and differences are just as natural as all the things we share commonly. And only a few of us have lived here for thousands of years. The majority of us have only lived here for a couple of weeks in comparison to the history of the rest of the world.
That is very different from China, so it's natural that they would think Chinese-Americans are just like them, but no one else is. The fact is Americans are all either Americans in the making or are fully made Americans. We act and think differently from the rest of the world.
At the same time, if we move to other places, we carry our skill at assimilating with us, so, given enough time, we can fit in wherever we end up easier than many other cultures can. Assimilating here has always been a rough and hard business, but once accomplished, we are all at ease with being similar to some others and different than some others. That just doesn't happen in many other places.
1. I think all nations could potentially produce brilliant scientists. Why would some choose to come to the USA rather than stay home? You would have to ask them but, it speaks volumes about the US's greatness compared to other places.
2. Apple's FOUNDER is American.
3. The Jerry Springer show represents the most extreme cases in US society. That's the reason they are on television. If they had ordinary lives, nobody would watch and the show would be cancelled. However I will say that at least they are interesting...whereas you probably couldn't say that about the people in your country...just very dull, boring, all do the same thing, day after day after day, while dreaming of seeing the USA and watching our news. Not interesting.
The topic is "what/who is a westerner" and my (sub)argument is that westerner is now more cultural than geographic and the US is less western than many others. To me, this has to do with primarily social and cultural issues rather than economic. Here are some the US does not do so well :
Death sentences, abortion issue, resistance to evolution/Darwin, high crime rate, high Gini coefficient, child mortality rates, literacy rates, the "freedom" of owning assault guns etc. For example, the US is listed as more corrupt than less developed countries such as Chile and Qatar as published by Transparency International. I shall not go into issues such as the Iraq war as I believe it will solely be perceived as a provocation.
Of course I have lots of good things to say about "America" but this topic is neither an attack nor a glorification topic. I am trying to argue about what is a westerner.
Note : If you do not enjoy my view you need to reply in a manner as required in a "great debates" posting. Your last sentences are not objective and therefore unfit for this forum.
It was previously argued by many others that a westerner is a white person. Now that non-white birth rates have surpassed white birth rates, does it mean the US is getting less western ?
I don't think so, because I think non-whites in the US live along western values. So will the US be the first non-white majority western country in the future ? I think yes and this would be very positive.
To me it's an outdated label. Australia and NZ are "Western" and so are its people. So is Russia west of the Urals.
To many Asians living in Asia: it's a white person. Nevermind a black man can come from the UK, or a Chinese guy can come from the USA, or that Hispanic person is also "western."
To many in the Arab world: the former colonial powers and the USA.
It was previously argued by many others that a westerner is a white person. Now that non-white birth rates have surpassed white birth rates, does it mean the US is getting less western ?
I don't think so, because I think non-whites in the US live along western values. So will the US be the first non-white majority western country in the future ? I think yes and this would be very positive.
I have thought of this myself. It looks like America is losing its Western status.
By reading the posts in this thread, I think I have developed a rather narrow minded view of what a Westerner is. In my mind a Westerner is White, connected with Christianity through heritage but may be secular/athiest, believes in representative democracy, and to some degree believes in humanism.
Looking back through all the posts it is very clear that this is the only universally accepted definition of a westerner. All other people's, no matter their faith, their world views, their race, or even where they live fall under the "iffy" status.
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