What if Pregnancy Had to be Government Approved?

[dr74]

Originally Posted by cittic10

Moderator cut: Off Topic

In a time where our number one product in this country is babies, and jobs, opportunities, food and environmental capacity for all the human impact is decreasing, we had better get a handle on our population.

I think the best way to go about this is to first of all, give citizens a clear amount of benefits and straighten out the immigration mess. Then and only then, would it be fair to say we're going to require proof that all these babies you want to have are going to be fed, clothed and have jobs, homes. If you disregard that then you can lose your citizenship and be deported.

My liberal friends criticize me for my 'can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em' attitude but I don't understand how it's fair that people are rewarded through tax incentives and various welfare programs for having kids they can't afford when many people like myself recognize the fact that it currently costs a quarter of a million dollars to raise a child to age 18 and I don't want to live like a pauper just to bring yet another person into this world. It's not the 1950's. We aren't doing so great. Our country is twirling down the tubes thanks to a corrupt government controlled by corporations and greedy rich people and prospects for the billions of new people on this planet don't look great.

To bring a child into this world that you can't afford, is really akin to neglect in my book.
Does that mean only rich people should have no babies? If you can afford the quarter million per child, have no credit card debt, stable job or savings or both and can just demonstrate that you've thought this one out, then breed away.

I see public schools are becoming increasingly overcrowded and increasingly underfunded. Most of my property tax goes towards our public schools when I don't even have children. I don't see how it's fair that I could actually be at risk of losing my home if I am unable to work and unable to pay my ridiculous tax bill all because more and more needs to be spent on all these children. I get that there is some benefit to all for having educated children but the parents need to step up and pay more into the pot and people like me who chose the "low impact" route, should be largely exempt from paying into the public schools pot.

On the other hand, I would reward people with tax incentives for adopting one or more of the many unwanted babies in this country.

You know, this isn't like a lot of the developing countries where families are large but are basically essential for farming and taking care of their parents after they get to a point they can no longer get by on their own. And where people live in villages in little huts and have sewage running through down the street. We have infrastructure here and people expect to have decent living conditions and expect there to be some form of safety net for the elderly and education and adequate healthcare and nutritious food that's only as far away as the nearest grocery store. It doesn't look like out population growth is going to sustain those expectations.

Please don't call me hitler. I am looking at this from an egalitarian perspective and the idea that government should look after its people. I want what is fair and in lieu of a fair economic system, we need to get our growth under control.

While I AGREE that there are too many children born and a strain on the system I disagree to where you are going.
You seem to be “blaming” immigrants for having children and receiving benefits and ect.
FYI..any child born here is a citizen and eligible for benefits this does not mean there PARENTS are.
A lot has changed in social services to curb this.
1. The child may receive the benefits and up to 3 children and the parent is placed on a clock. This means after 5 years the parent is made to go to school or get some training in order to ensure that some progression is being made.
2. The parent should they be illegal is not eligible for bennies..this means no MEDICAL or Monetary funds..The money and services is solely for the child.
3. Under the table earnings is no longer allowed. Stringent laws have looked into bank accounts, places of employment and so forth.
As far as not paying taxes? Another myth..
How do I know this? I was a case manager/transitional housing coordinator for a long time. I had some women coming in and stating that they were going to lose Bennie because their worker found out they had a bank account that was unreported. That they did not make enough on Calworks and had to work in the fields..I stated this was expected.. We all haveto work..
I assisted clients in their taxes because they were working at legit jobs that they accrued the usual..and taxes were taken out, so Ca got their money..
As far as over abundance of children at schools? This is all children not just immigrant children.. Where I WORK now ( A homeless shelter) most of my clients are white and have 3 or 5 children…geez.. So it is not just immigrants..

Originally Posted by tinytrump

let see-start with haters- those who think they are perfect maybe? the whole human race would be eliminated by your standards sooner or later. Sometimes great people have very weird and sicko kids( pedophiles, rapists, etc). Some people do great and then mental illness sets in,,, (oh My) some wealthy people who can do alot of good, become arrogant and selfish, and self centered and corrupt everything around them...then some love drugs & alchohol and just wack out- what a bunch of crock already- the human race is flawed and nothing will change that, we as people just have to learn to act & do better as we go. Maybe less poverty & more education might help,,, are you ready to donate to your fellow man or just want to annihilate them all? I do wonder however, if you have any children of your own? wonder what happens when they do not hold up to your expectations,,,

There is no perfect parent first of all, neither were are parents but using good judgment? Seldom goes out of style.
The fact that two responsible people have children whom are mentally ill? Is irrelevant.. Or disabled children? Irrelevant again..This is out of their control and has nothing to do with this thread.
However Being addicted to DRUGS and being irresponsible and having random sex with whomever is available while in a drugged out haze? And continuing to use drugs while pregnant? And affecting the child and therefore burdening society with your self caused mess and selfishness? Inexcusable.
Let us not mention that these types of parents are usually repeat offenders and continue to bear more children under these same conditions?
The condition of which their children are born under is of little consequence to them. They have received advice, police intervention, court intervention and yet they still continue to procreate?
These issues unlike the rest are completely preventable…
I myself agree to testing those whom receive social services! I have to get tested every time I apply for a job and need to get a live scan just to make sure I can do my job and there is nothing holding me back let alone I need to have these done in order to work directly with children yet any boob can go and get preggers? Lol..Where is the twisted logic in this?

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by OhZone

Currently the US and the world are overpopulated and there is too much poverty.
Before such a plan could be implemented there has to be a general method by which all are sterile until given an anti-dote OR some means of a reversible physical sterilization. I can't go along with abortion to cure the problem and to levy fines is ridiculous. Especially since this takes money out of the pockets of those who are barely making it anyway. And that is about at least 1/2 of the population.

Another thing that is an absolute Must is to sterilize Early in life anyone who has a heritable defect. These people should never under any circumstances reproduce.

Some form of reversable non surgical sterilization is one thng. A lot of people would welcome it over pills and the risk of non reversal from surgery. That is what the IUD was supposed to do, but it proved to be far more dangerous than anyone of its inventors forsaw. Any kind of method would have to be absolutely certified as safe enough it could be done without the person being checked on repeatedly. And it would have to be their choice to reverse it. Only. None would voluntarily agree if it was some guy in a suit with a file who got to decide. Physically sterilizing someone is not acceptable. In theory they can be reversed, but in practical terms you don't know. This would constitute a risk as well for if you surgically alter someone you must do surgery and there is ALWAYS a risk of death or complications.

Offer it as a choice, free, if you want but choice must always be there. And you can't select by income either. If you say its required then the richest man and woman have to be too. And what if one remarries? What if he had a child and she didn't? This is opening a HUGE can of worms which would lead to an underground solution and the law being pushed aside anyway.

And this inheritable defect... just where do you stop? If a couple can produce a child with a deadly disease, but might not, do you just say no? What if you test the fetus early to see instead? And what do you define as someone who should be made second class and declared damaged? A woman who has a large chance of breast cancer? Someone who has alhiemers in the family? Someone who might inherit a bad heart or pass it on? And what about mental conditions? If bipolar disorder runs in the family do you put them all on the list? Major depresson? How bad does it get before you wipe out the whole future generations?

Maybe it would be best if we developed the technology used in Gattica, where births are all started in labs, and smarter, stronger humans are the rule. And anyone who isn't good enough goes to the servant class.

I understand that world population is too high, but the absolutes in this post are unacceptable. What good to cut the population while stripping all *choice* away is there going to be. In order to enforce something like this, there would need to be mass coercion. Me, I'd rather we have too many people than that.

In the end, Mother Nature will correct. It will be quick and brutal, maybe a couple of super volcanoes in a row, maybe (most likely) a deadly worldwide epidemic which we can't stop. It would take literally days to go from patient zero to worldwide in our world, and nobody would be able to cope.

In the end, the survivors would be the ones with a little something extra, maybe a better immune system, maybe a very strong will to live, maybe just a gene which nobody had looked at that made the difference. None of this could we measure. In the great squeeze of about 50,000 years ago, the burgeoning population of homo sapiens, just moving out of africa, was cut ot perhaps less than a thousand by massive natural disastor. But without that, there wouldn't be you and me. One of the things which made the difference for individuals was the ability to think out of the box, to look at things and see options beyond the conventional, and to imagine things which didn't exist in front of them. This is often tied today to some form of mental condition, and people are called 'odd', and would probably be sterialized so they wouldn't pass it on.

But we are homo sapiens sapiens. Wise wise man. We are different enough than the ones around when (likely) the supervolcanios blew we became a new subspecies. Nature supplies the different, the odd, the seemingly useless, because sometimes that's what you need.

[SuperSparkle928]

Originally Posted by Edison Winter

It would never happen, but I think it should and here is why.

Most of the problems in this country come from people. Most of the people who cause these problems come from poor, broken homes, with unfit, unsuitable parents, who should have never had kids in the first place. A lot of those pregnancies were unplanned, and suddenly you have a child being raised into a broken home with unfit parents.

I think we are at the point in this country where it should no longer be a right to freely give birth. I think in order to continue a pregnancy and give birth, the parents should have to submit an application to a newly designed government agency that would handle birth approval.

It would be a application that looked for things such as, current employment by both parents. Current living arrangements and location of both parents. Prior criminal record for both parents. Drug testing for both parents, check the citizen status of both parents to make sure they are not here illegally, things of that nature. Basically to see if the parents are suitable individuals to bring a child into this country and will have the ability to raise it properly.

If the application is approved, it would go on a list of expected birth registry, that hospitals can use as a reference when the mother comes in to give birth. That family would also be eligible for all federal assistance programs if needed in the future. Chances are if they are well off and responsible enough, they wouldnt need any of these programs, which would save a lot of money paid to people who need handouts to raise a family.

If the application is denied and the mother is not currently pregnant, she would have to wait 2 years to reapply. If the mother is currently pregnant, she would be legally required to have an abortion or face financial penalties if she refused. Abortions would be paid for by the government.

If people tried to slide under the radar and didnt submit application for approval, then they would not be allowed or eligible to receive ANY federal assistance to raise the child. They would be all on their own. No handouts. I would personally go as far as to say that if they had no proof of approval, then hospitals shouldnt be required to deliver the baby, however, if they went to the hospital to deliver the child and didnt show up on the approval registry, they would be subjected to a hefty fine. Subsequent violations would result in jail time, and the kids being moved to foster care.

Sounds harsh and would never happen, but I wish it would. Oh how I wish it would. Know why? Because only people who have proven to have good moral character and are productive members of society should have the right and opportunity to bring another life into this country.

The parents with felonies, using drugs, no jobs, severe mental health issues, etc should not have the right to bring life into this world.

It should be a privilege that is rewarded to people who have done well in life and have a proven track record of being stable and balanced individuals.

You dont just go into a car and start driving. You have to take a test to get a license. You dont just walk into a place and start working at a job, you need to submit an application, a very detailed application to make sure you are suitable for employment. You dont just walk into a house, and live there, you need to be approved for a mortgage to prove your worthy and capable of owning a home.

Well above all that is the importance of bringing another human being into this world, and in order to do that, you should need approval as well.

Unfortunately things in this country have gotten so bad and out of control with crime and poverty, that I think this idea would work great, but unfortunately for the good people of the country, would never be approved.

Very well said. I absolutely agree, though, I agree it would never fly.
When some (not all), people decide to take their pants off and make a baby, under the (currently accurate) assumption that someone else will pay for all the expenses, that is downright wrong. True, in the US it is your right and is legal to make one, but it is unethical to sponge off the rest of society. Literally 75% of my city taxes went to support others, and services I never have, nor ever will, use. That is like someone saying "Hey, I want a Lamborghini, and I haven't planned ahead, so I don't have the money, so I will let the taxpayers bail me out.
But the fitness of the parents, family structure, living conditions are the most important. You hit the nail on the head. Though I don't like to generalize, and I have met many a person that came from absolutely awful backgrounds, and they ended up as famous doctors, lawyers and merchant chiefs. Though that is a very very small percentage.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by SuperSparkle928

Very well said. I absolutely agree, though, I agree it would never fly.
When some (not all), people decide to take their pants off and make a baby, under the (currently accurate) assumption that someone else will pay for all the expenses, that is downright wrong. True, in the US it is your right and is legal to make one, but it is unethical to sponge off the rest of society. Literally 75% of my city taxes went to support others, and services I never have, nor ever will, use. That is like someone saying "Hey, I want a Lamborghini, and I haven't planned ahead, so I don't have the money, so I will let the taxpayers bail me out.
But the fitness of the parents, family structure, living conditions are the most important. You hit the nail on the head. Though I don't like to generalize, and I have met many a person that came from absolutely awful backgrounds, and they ended up as famous doctors, lawyers and merchant chiefs. Though that is a very very small percentage.

The reason it would never fly is most understand that when you open the door to the sliprey slope, you can't close it. Once you make this decree there are many things which go along with it. How do you decide? Who decides? Who enforces this decision? In China its a dictatorship. Do we really want to officially give us one here?

Always always ALWAYS consider the unintended concequences of an action before your so sure its a good idea.