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Old 12-09-2012, 08:36 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 24,112,197 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
Your friend is correct. Switzerland does not have the population to maintain a large standing army, so the Swiss government trains the Swiss people as soldiers during two years mandatory military service. Afterwards, the soldiers take their rifles home and maintain them in order to quickly form a militia in the event Switzerland ever has to go to war.

IIRC, Switzerland has one of the highest firearm ownership rates in the world, and they have very little crime as a result. It really takes apart the "guns cause crime" argument many gun control advocates like to toss around like it is a gospel truth.
That's how the conversation started between my buddy and I. He just bought a pistol and a shotgun, and I've shot for 15+ years. We considered the idea that since most Swiss are armed, criminals are less likely to go after the citizenry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinrebel View Post
True statements.

I'm don't think pot can be considered healthy, however. To my knowledge, the health of long term pot smokers has not been studied extensively. Not so easy to study when possession is illegal. I have read excerpts from a doctor supported study that said that pot is actually beneficial to the lungs. It said that lung capacity was increased in test subjects who smoked...some...pot. That being said, I don't think that smoking anything provides long term health benefits, even if pot does help with symptoms of come illnesses.

These days science says tobacco smoke and BBQ smoke cause cancer. Just a whiff of second hand cigarette smoke can kill you, according to the anti-smokers and tiny particles can seep through apartment walls and kill you. It's hard to believe pot smoke is some mind of magic smoke that does no harm to the lungs.

That said, I personally think it should be legalized and businesses be allowed to open that cater to pot smokers. Bars, Restaurants, whatever should be only be required to hang a sign on the door that says "Pot Smoking Allowed."

I have better things for the cops to do than bust somebody smoking a joint. Or a tobacco smoker, for that matter. We've already wasted many billions on the failed war on drugs. That money could certainly have been used in much better ways.
I think there does need to be some limitations on where pot can be used, since second hand exposure can negatively affect a non-user.

 
Old 12-09-2012, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Hove,UK
132 posts, read 138,410 times
Reputation: 294
Boy oh Boy,practically everything you write here is wrong,but I'll take you through it bit by bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Actually Cocaine is/has been used for nasal issues as well. As for amphetamines (a subject I'm rather familiar with by the way) are used for many conditions (joint pain is a new one on me, maybe I'll mention it to my doc's for my joint pain) like sleep disorders (narcolepsy) ADHD,some weight loss and some mood disorders. Just because a drug has a medicinal use does not mean (to me) that it should be sold at the street level in an unregulated manner to whomever wants it. I feel the same about pot by the way, wonder when they'll do that 'cause they sure aren't now.
Big fallacy right there. Legalisation does not mean unregulated.Prohibition is unregulated.Legalisation means regulated ,taxed supply within a lawful framework,meaning ID checks and quality control. Ever seen a drug dealer check ID?? Yeah,me neither!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
As for countries where drugs (all) are legal you are incorrect as you obviously missed Portugal. I also count "legal" if while there are laws they're never enforced they may not be De facto legal but are legal by De jure.
No,I am not incorrect.Check your facts.Portugal has NOT legalised drugs! They are,again,merely tolerated.All you did was move the goalposts. Nice try though.
Also,guess what? Get caught with more than personal use in Portugal? You still go to Prison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Oh, you might also want to look at the Netherlands (you'll notice I've not even gotten to Switzerland yet) and see what Amsterdam has to offer. Here's a small quote:
"Proponents of legalization almost certainly would cite Amsterdam as the drug Mecca of the Western world. Anyone may go into the restaurants in this city and order marijuana and hashish from a menu; further, heroin and cocaine have been decriminalized for all practical purposes. The police simply leave the users alone. Consequently, health officials estimate that Amsterdam has 7,000 addicts, 20% of whom are foreigners.58 These addicts are responsible for 80% of all property crime in the city, thus necessitating that Amsterdam maintain a police presence far greater than those of cities of comparable size in the United States."
Yes,cocaine and Heroin possession for personal use will most likely not be prosecuted.This isn't just the Dutch though.Most of Europe operates this system.You know why? Cause we're stupid over here,right? No,cause it actually REDUCES CRIME! We don't have a prison system that incarcerates more people than any other.
Amsterdam has 7000 addicts and needs a far greater police presence than comparable US cities you say? The Netherlands and the US have comparable police to population ratios.I could not find exact stats for Amsterdam police,but I may write an email. However:
the dutch addict population is ageing.....
the Dutch have the lowest Cannabis smoking rates for youngsters in Europe and much lower than the US
Baltimore is a comparable city to Amsterdam.Let's have a look at the stats,shall we?
Addicts in Baltimore: 68000 Part I: Baltimore Is the U.S. Heroin Capital - ABC News
Addicts in Amsterdam: 7000 as per yourself.

some more stats for you: US Netherlands
Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use 2005 40.6% (ages 12 and up)1 22.6% (ages 15-64)2
Past year prevalence of marijuana use 2005 10.3% (ages 12 and up)1 5.4% (ages 15-64)2
Lifetime prevalence of heroin use 2005 1.5% (ages 12 and up)1 0.6% (ages 15-64)2
Incarceration Rate per 100,000 populatio 2008 756 3 100 4
Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros) 1998 €379 5 €223 5
Homicide rate per 100,000 population 2009 5.06 1.16


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
As for the tax thing, here's what goes on in the Netherlands:The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States. The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes so I'd say that's working out real well.
LOL,the dutch have not raised a single Dollar???
$600.000.000 per year in Cannabis sales tax every year.

Europe: Dutch Marijuana Tax Revenues at $600 Million a Year, Crop Is Country's Third Largest Export | StoptheDrugWar.org
The Dutch state earns 400 million ? annually from coffeeshop taxes | Dutch Passion
yeah,not a single Dollar....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
"Much like Amsterdam, Switzerland until recently followed a policy of decriminalization. Indeed, a city park in the town of Zurich for many years was allowed to be a haven for drug users - police simply would ignore the problem by claiming that it was better to have all the addicts in one place rather than having them roam throughout the entire city. Unsurprisingly, in February of 1992 Switzerland ended this experiment with decriminalization after experiencing an unacceptable increase in use, violence, crime and health costs and consequences. Specifically, the number of addicts residing at the park (called Platzspitz) jumped from a few hundred in 1987 to over 20,000, by early 1992."
If anyone is interested the data came from The Experience of Foreign Countries and Drug Legalization
oh,look,a story from 1992..... what year is it now??
Guess what? Needle Park was a failure,but do you know why? Cause the heroin itself wasn't legal,and the Swiss came to the right conclusion.They allowed prescribed heroin to over 5000 addicts in Zurich alone and the cops love it! The people love it cause the addicts don't steal and burgle anymore for their fix.

Do you understand any german? Here are some interesting facts from the swiss heroin clinics....
after 6 months of heroin prescription:
Reduction of criminal activity from 53% of income to 13%.
5.5 times LESS contacts with police and the criminal justice system
Percentage of Addicts with no fixed abode reduced from 15% to 3%
at the beginning of their prescription 29% of addicts had a job. After 6 months it over 50%

http://www.wiso.uni-hamburg.de/filea...en/heroin3.PDF

other European countries have similar success stories to tell in the treatment of addicts.... what success has America to show for 40 years of prohibition??
2.3 million in prison
$1.5 trillion spent
inner cities plagued by gangs and dealers....

strange,we in 'liberal,legal drugs Europe' don't have your problems,not on anywhere near such a scale.Strange,huh??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
I'm not against pot for medical reasons but set up a "real" program not these hokey back door legalization medical MJ scams that we've got now.
I guess I could take a libertarian stance on this and say "legalize it all, let people decide for themselves" but as you can see from other countries it ain't working out so well for them besides who then will be paying when these drug addicts burn out or just want to sit and get high all day? Either they will by crime or the rest of us will via tax dollars or most likely BOTH.
You think you ain't paying for prohibition now?? You think your tax dollars are put to good use by the police chasing junkies??

Oh,and those countries that 'fail',according to you:

Decriminalizing Drugs in Portugal a Success, Says Report - TIME
Portugal Drug Policy: Decriminalization Works - Business Insider
Drug decriminalization in Portugal decreases number of addicts

You read way,way too much US government propaganda on drugs,my friend. Ever been to Europe? Go to Amsterdam,Zurich,Berlin,London and Porto.... we have a fraction of the drug crime you guys have,and that is exactly because we don't have an all-out drug war.

America,wake up! Prohibition is a failure,and you know it
 
Old 12-10-2012, 01:51 AM
 
1,824 posts, read 1,711,894 times
Reputation: 1378
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
First off Wiki is not a reputable source for anything. I'd bet if we dug deep enough a death or two would show up or we'd find stats that counter what you say. Doesn't mean the stats are exactly correct, just as stats for the proponents aren't.

Secondly, it's repeatedly stated in your posts that all drugs should be legal "to stop dealers and other down sides of drugs" so it's very clear where your attitudes lie.

If having all drugs legalized was such a wonderful idea then why is it that only a couple of the "progressive" countries do so?

If Wikipedia owner didn't care if info was right or wrong, why would citing sources be required? Why does Wikipedia refuse advertising or huge contributions? It's paid for in small amounts by some of it's many users. Why is it one of the most popular sites on the internet?

Unbiased sources do not make their living in the prohibition industries.

As for other countries drug laws, US made most UN countries adopt drug laws similar to US drug laws or worse. And the bullying continues. Governments around the world criticize our phony war on some drugs. Would you consider retired narcotics officers unbiased sources? If so, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition may be more to your liking.

My facts, opinions, etc, come from reading probably 5,000-10,000 pages on MJ & drug war. I had to read maybe 2,000 pages to know for sure who was giving out false or misleading info & why. The answer is short: follow the money. Best wishes.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 03:00 AM
 
4,526 posts, read 6,061,067 times
Reputation: 3983
bottom line here--regulation of substances in this country does not work--ie----alcohol,prescription narcotics

encouraging or making it easier to get substances that affect the brain,create chemical dependence,change physiological functioning is never a positive thing(unless the body needs it to survive--for ex--insulin)
 
Old 12-10-2012, 09:24 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,874,403 times
Reputation: 15643
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJJG2012 View Post
If Wikipedia owner didn't care if info was right or wrong, why would citing sources be required? Why does Wikipedia refuse advertising or huge contributions? It's paid for in small amounts by some of it's many users. Why is it one of the most popular sites on the internet?
The thing about wiki is it can be modified by anyone to say anything, as for sources being required? Well then explain the posts that state "source needed" or something to that effect. Just because I type "sources are required" doesn't mean squat unless it's enforced and on wiki it's not.

Unbiased sources do not make their living in the prohibition industries.
Try and find an "unbiased" source for most anything. I don't know if that's even possible anymore.

As for other countries drug laws, US made most UN countries adopt drug laws similar to US drug laws or worse. And the bullying continues. Governments around the world criticize our phony war on some drugs. Would you consider retired narcotics officers unbiased sources? If so, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition may be more to your liking.

My facts, opinions, etc, come from reading probably 5,000-10,000 pages on MJ & drug war. I had to read maybe 2,000 pages to know for sure who was giving out false or misleading info & why. The answer is short: follow the money. Best wishes.
The stuff you read and claim to be the "truth" is only the truth because you believe it to be so and to be quite honest, not knowing you and only reading the posts here a bias definitely jumps off the page. If you're only looking for facts to back up your points you'll find "your truth" (I think I showed that quite nicely). I believe the truth lies somewhere in middle ground. Stating that drugs are good/bad/harmless/harmful for everyone is way too simplistic and paints everyone with the same broad brush. Example: Morphine which is regularly used for pain control almost everywhere and on most everyone. I can't take it. I have a nasty reaction to it that is totally opposite of what most people get. Most people when given Morphine experience a sedated state where I (unfortunately) experience the exact opposite and will not be able to sit still or sleep for days (not good if you've just had major back surgery).
I don't think total prohibition is or ever has been viable but I also think that total deregulation will be a disaster mostly due to societies recent (over the last 20 years or so) heightened need to alter their mind and the large spectrum of possible side affects. I guess it somewhat comes down to $$$$ as it usually does. Do you want to spend the $$$ to try and stop drugs or spend $$$$ on the total support (including death costs) of those that choose to use drugs to excess. Unfortunately not everyone is as responsible as you obviously are, I'd bet not even most for that matter.
Merry Christmas btw.

Last edited by jimj; 12-10-2012 at 09:33 AM..
 
Old 12-10-2012, 09:36 AM
 
Location: The Triad
34,091 posts, read 82,498,922 times
Reputation: 43648
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj View Post
Stating that drugs are good/bad/harmless/harmful for everyone is way too simplistic
and paints everyone with the same broad brush.
Very good.

Quote:
I don't think total prohibition is or ever has been viable
but I also think that total deregulation will be a disaster
Is someone (anyone) advocating for "total deregulation"?

Would you consider MJ purchase regulated by age (like with alcohol) to be appropriate?
 
Old 12-10-2012, 01:34 PM
 
2,142 posts, read 1,892,792 times
Reputation: 1059
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJJG2012 View Post
MJ hallucinogenic drug, probably not for the low THC, low CBD variety from Mexico. Also, not sure about the
low THC, high CBD type. The high THC, low CBD type can cause hallucinations, but this probably is no concern to others. The hallucinations are like shiny spots on some patches of ground, in the dark of the night. This is similar to walking an area after a rain during the day, and seeing holes that have filled up with rain, & the sun shining causing a reflection on top of the water.
Its a hallucinogenic drug. Visual hallucinations are irrelevant to that classification.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 02:57 PM
 
8,402 posts, read 24,112,197 times
Reputation: 6822
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntieannie68 View Post
bottom line here--regulation of substances in this country does not work--ie----alcohol,prescription narcotics

encouraging or making it easier to get substances that affect the brain,create chemical dependence,change physiological functioning is never a positive thing(unless the body needs it to survive--for ex--insulin)
No system of any kind is flawless. Regulation of pot/drugs will likely improve the situation for a variety of reasons, and in any event will reduce crime and increase revenue for something that is already happening anyway. The history of alcohol in this country is an excellent example of how this can work.
 
Old 12-10-2012, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
30,585 posts, read 24,942,450 times
Reputation: 50789
I wonder the same thing. But OP specifically says the pot triggered the psychosis. But he smoked a long time before the psychosis appeared, no?

I am not pro pot, but because it is widely used, I feel it should be legalized and regulated. People ruin their lives with alcohol too, becoming addicted and causing havoc in their families. Prohibition failed to stop people from drinking.

Drunk = stoned
 
Old 12-10-2012, 06:33 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 26,874,403 times
Reputation: 15643
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
No system of any kind is flawless. Regulation of pot/drugs will likely improve the situation for a variety of reasons, and in any event will reduce crime and increase revenue for something that is already happening anyway. The history of alcohol in this country is an excellent example of how this can work.
And how much of a failure it can be. If MJ and/or other drug legalization follows the "excellent example" of Alcohol (and there's no reason to think it won't) then I'd think the figures below would probably double at a minimum.
All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for as you may just get it.

From the NIH:
In spite of underage drinking laws and prevention programs, available information from national surveys indicates that rates of underage alcohol consumption over the past decade remain at unacceptably high levels
The 2008 National Survey on Drug Use and Health estimates there are 10.1 million underage drinkers in the United States. According to the 2008 Monitoring the Future Study (Welcome to the MTF Website), 39% of current 8th graders, 58% of 10th graders, 72% of 12th graders, and 85% of college students have tried alcohol.
And some of the more depressing stats:
Death – 5,000 people under age 21 die each year from alcohol-related car crashes, homicides, suicides, alcohol poisoning, and other injuries such as falls, burns, and drowning.
Serious injuries – More than 190,000 people under age 21 visited an emergency room for alcohol-related injuries in 2008 alone.
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