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At least you admit the above are nothing other than your observations and opinions. In my observations and opinion, they are purely stereotypical. But, since you think anecdotal evidence equals fact, here's what I know to be fact about people named Sheena. I'm qualified to make these statements based on the observances I made while working in an office where there was a receptionist named Sheena.
All people named Sheena:
Are women 60 years of age who hail from NY.
They all have long black hair that they dye and they all wear lots of heavy makeup.
They have never met an animal print article of clothing they didn't like.
They all have fake boobs, tans and nails.
They all drink black coffee all day and/or Diet Pepsi.
They all smoke.
They all live with a guy named Sal.
They all love to play poker and bowl.
They all believe in psychics and have a reading every week.
They all call everyone "Hon".
They all drive Cadillacs and hate foreign cars.
They all vacation in the Poconos.
Since your name is Sheena, my anecdotal evidence tells me you are a carbon copy of the one other Sheena I know. It must be true since observation and opinion are fact in all cases
Of course, the possibility also exists that it isn't true. Just like your observations about all Southerners.
No you made something up that might be a stereotype of a woman gleaned from several reality shows and you applied it to one person. me.
Sort of as revenge.
I have spent time in the south and lot's of it. I have relatives who are from the south, so I have been to quite a few Southern weddings. I have entertained Southerners in my home on numerous occasions.
I am also friends with southerners and that is where I have come upon my observations.
They are not from watching "Honey Boo Boo" and I thing that show might add to some people's stereotypes of the South.
I have seen that show or half of one, and I do not believe that those people are representative of the South, I think instead that they are representative of lower class, poorly educated people that could as easily be found in up state NY, New Hampshire or PA.
I'm smart enough to know this.
Your "generalization" about me is just silly. And it seems to have been gleaned from watching reality shows such as "Jersey Shore", "Long Island Psychic" and "Mob Wives".
You made the generalization about a person, using my screen name, which is ludicrous.
My generalizations were not about an individual, but about a region of the country with which I am very familiar. I know well, am related to and have spent quite a bit of time with people from the following states - North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, and Arkansas. That's quite a few southern states and many people.
I have looked for a home in two southern stated then changed my mind for a variety of reasons. During those several months I interacted with quite a few southerners and actually lived there, with my husband, not far from a close relative who was originally from the mid-Atlantic and moved there about 25 years earlier.
I have observed the following about Southerners, that in general they tend to be -
1, Conservative
2.Traditional
3.polite in a formal way - use of "sir" and "ma'am" by children when addressing elders and strangers.
4. Gun culture
5.fascination with the military
6.more religious interjecting religion and prayer into conversations that are not about that topic.
7.tend to use corporal punishment as a means of disciplining children.
Any arguments?
Also I was called a "Yankee" during an argument with my brother's girl friend who is a Social Worker. She is not a member of the Honey Boo Boo crowd.
My niece had her face slapped and was called a "rude northerner" ( although she has lived in the South since age three) several days before the wedding.
Many still seem to be fighting the Civil War.
The fact is that I am a college educated WASP, who is not married to nor has ever dayed anyone named "Sal". I have blond hair and green eyes. I prefer tea to coffee, and I never drink diet soda and have never smoked in my life. I was a finalist in a teenaged beauty pageant, and I do enjoy literature that is set in the south - Falkner, Capote, Mc Cullers, O'Connor and others.
I admire some aspects of the south, but I could not live there full time.
There is a distinct Southern Culture and I think I have pretty well defined it.
^ ^ Actually that brings up the one area that I think has hurt the South the most, and has helped contribute to the ''low information voter'' rap that it often gets, and that's the apparent low value put on education. Yeah, we all know the South has some fine schools and and has produced some great writers, but let's face it, ''edu-macation'' doesn't hold quite the same value in Southern culture as it does say for asians, jews, or blacks, who even have their own universities! In fact very few rural Southerners of either race went beyond the 8th grade until after 1945, and even today, the term ''educated elite'' ain't exactly a form of praise!
So while southern culture actually has contributed a lot to this country, IMHO, that general ''ambivalence'' (if not hostility) towards higher learning & education in general, has always held the South back and arguably contributed to its dependence on ante-bellum slavery. And they're definitely not stupid, as I have met farmers in Alabama who never got past h.s., and yet taught themselves everything from how to disassemble tractor hydraulics, to installing their own 3-phase wiring! Yet it's hard to understand where all that anti-intellectual ''attitude'' comes from... is it about class distinctions, or a religious thang?
Yes! There does seem to be a hostility towards higher education. I have heard the term "North east liberal intellectual" bantered about quite a bit.There are also a proliferation of Christan and highly conservative colleges in the south.
Some examples - Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Liberty University, Southeastern University, Evangel University, Christiandom College, Southwestern University, Harding College and University of Dallas. Most of these are fundamentalist Protestant but two are ultra conservative Catholic.
Since desegregation, Southerners have found a way around that also. With the invention of the church related Christian Schools that are almost all white, do not teach evolution, focus on the "Three Rs" and employ curricula that was developed at Pensacola Christian College and Bob Jones University.
The latter of those fine institutions did not at one point, permit interracial dating.
So you've heard this - and you've heard that. What do you actually know? Where have you traveled or lived?
And where do you live now - and what do you do for a living? And why do you think you are "with it" - so to speak (which seems like a hideously antiquated phrase to me)?
FWIW - I think you are very mistaken when you mention places like Savannah and Charleston and Asheville as so-called meccas.
The biggest problems that exist in the south are an ill-educated work force and jobs that don't pay so well. But - when I look at the rest of the country - it's catching up to us pretty fast (a race to the bottom IMO). Robyn
Aren't you punchy? I'm sorry, I DON'T have a Ponte Vedra Beach address. The sawgrass would be hard on a lawn mower. My information is of 2007 vintage. I tend to use my free tickets from the West to vacation on the Florida Panhandle. On that trip, I also added JAX and ATL. Nothing wrong with talking to the locals about the place. That they were transplants who waited on me and sold cars at a dealership didn't matter to me. They gave me candid observations about the area. I also pulled real estate flyers in Mandarin and whatever that newish area along JTB 202 is called, between JAX and The Beaches. If you want to see my stats, look up my profile, which is available. Since you were subsequently so insulting to mateo45, had to inform us of the South's educational marvels, and then tell us how uninformed we are, I've also lived in ATL, which I loved, and applied to some of those very schools for grad school - and got into 2 of them. As far as my schools, they would fall into that same exact "league," though in other regions, being that I couldn't afford private schools. I have no ax to grind with the South. I find it fascinating: a Yankee accent in ATL's northern suburbs among native kids who work at Starbucks and a different accent in Valley, Alabama ... where I didn't see a valley. I see a lot of changes: the influx of Hispanics, Asians, and others. The South can't be generalized, but it can be compartmentalized. The same could be said of the Intermountain West. There's Denver, SLC, Boise, Las Vegas, et. al. In my book, only Denver is worth living in. Then, there are meccas, meaning gathering spots for people who are "cool" (hip, with it, whatever) and want to be around similar "cool" people. In the West, those are the ski towns along I-70, Jackson Hole WY, and a few others. Then you have some places that are scary. My Cuban friend's sister lived in a small scenic town in the Intermountain West and she laughed at how she couldn't go into a store in the town when she was new without being asked what TRIBE she was from. I doubt those people could have found Cuba on the map if unmarked. As for Southern meccas, there is a scene of sorts in Asheville, with the Vanderbilt Mansion, or whatever it's called, Savannah, Charleston, and there are even people who descend on Pensacola because they want to live there, but move out because it is stifling. Having been to PNS almost 10x, the locals and transplants tell me there is a "transient" population who tries to make a go of PNS and finds that they can't. Asheville is very hippy-dippy and everyone knows that. While not scientific, I believe in talking to the "taxi drivers" of an area or, said differently, the everyday man and woman on the street. Have you read travel books? They speak anecdotally about the vibes of different places and people in the world, and no one says "What do you know?" One of the things it mentioned is that most Portenos (residents of Buenos Aires) you engage in conversation will ask you where you are from and what brought you there very early on, and in a very quizzical manner. The reason is that it is at "an end," so most people are not changing planes there and laying over, unlike London or Tokyo. Sure enough, this happened as reliably as the run rises.
FWIW, I speak four languages besides English, and I didn't go to Cornell. In fact, my cousin in upstate NY got into both Cornell and Univ. of Mich., and picked Michigan. Smart guy, my cousin. I tried to return to ATL, and even considered Charlotte, but I got cold feet about making such a schlep from the other side of the country. That means I think the South is just fine. However, there are still cultural markers in the region which divide the typical person from New Jersey from the typical person from Mississippi. The chief one I see is the communication style: lay the cards out on the table, or hold a few closer to the vest.
Last edited by robertpolyglot; 02-18-2013 at 11:52 PM..
There are also a proliferation of Christan and highly conservative colleges in the south.
Pensacola Christian College
You can almost walk to Pensacola Christian College from the main Barnes and Noble in town. Some of the students there have their books open while getting some food in the cafe. Them, and the UWF students, who must have collectively accumulated more sand between their toes over their 4 years than what would be necessary to fill Boston's "Big Dig," study there. Pensacola Christian College, nah. I'll bet they have a course called "Indoctrination of the Catholic Heathen." Just kidding.
No you made something up that might be a stereotype of a woman gleaned from several reality shows and you applied it to one person. me.
Sort of as revenge.
I have spent time in the south and lot's of it. I have relatives who are from the south, so I have been to quite a few Southern weddings. I have entertained Southerners in my home on numerous occasions.
I am also friends with southerners and that is where I have come upon my observations.
They are not from watching "Honey Boo Boo" and I thing that show might add to some people's stereotypes of the South.
I have seen that show or half of one, and I do not believe that those people are representative of the South, I think instead that they are representative of lower class, poorly educated people that could as easily be found in up state NY, New Hampshire or PA.
I'm smart enough to know this.
Your "generalization" about me is just silly. And it seems to have been gleaned from watching reality shows such as "Jersey Shore", "Long Island Psychic" and "Mob Wives".
You made the generalization about a person, using my screen name, which is ludicrous.
My generalizations were not about an individual, but about a region of the country with which I am very familiar. I know well, am related to and have spent quite a bit of time with people from the following states - North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, and Arkansas. That's quite a few southern states and many people.
I have looked for a home in two southern stated then changed my mind for a variety of reasons. During those several months I interacted with quite a few southerners and actually lived there, with my husband, not far from a close relative who was originally from the mid-Atlantic and moved there about 25 years earlier.
I have observed the following about Southerners, that in general they tend to be -
1, Conservative
2.Traditional
3.polite in a formal way - use of "sir" and "ma'am" by children when addressing elders and strangers.
4. Gun culture
5.fascination with the military
6.more religious interjecting religion and prayer into conversations that are not about that topic.
7.tend to use corporal punishment as a means of disciplining children.
Any arguments?
Also I was called a "Yankee" during an argument with my brother's girl friend who is a Social Worker. She is not a member of the Honey Boo Boo crowd.
My niece had her face slapped and was called a "rude northerner" ( although she has lived in the South since age three) several days before the wedding.
Many still seem to be fighting the Civil War.
The fact is that I am a college educated WASP, who is not married to nor has ever dayed anyone named "Sal". I have blond hair and green eyes. I prefer tea to coffee, and I never drink diet soda and have never smoked in my life. I was a finalist in a teenaged beauty pageant, and I do enjoy literature that is set in the south - Falkner, Capote, Mc Cullers, O'Connor and others.
I admire some aspects of the south, but I could not live there full time.
There is a distinct Southern Culture and I think I have pretty well defined it.
Animal print clothes? ...surely you jest.
The Sheena I mentioned was not made up at all. I worked with her for over 5 years. And, yes, she LOVED animal prints and the more the better like a zebra stripped sweater worn with leopard spot shoes. She was also a hard worker, funny as hell and a truly kind person. Does she represent all people named Sheena, no. But, neither do your examples of Southerners respresent all Southerners. And yet you persist in believing your own fantasy.
Arguments? Oh yes, definitely. You haven't even come close to defining the South. First of all, we need to agree on what states are "Southern". Are you referring to the guidelines as defined by the Census Bureau? If not, you should be. They divide the South into 3 divisions:
South Atlantic States: Florida, Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia and Delaware
East South Central States: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Tennessee
West South Central States: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas
That's a total of 16 Southern States. You based your judgments on spending time in 6 of them and I will assume in just a small part of each state as I doubt you visited extensively in all parts of these states.
1. Conservative - If you're talking politics, then you are right and wrong. But, since people's politics tend to mirror their views on social issues, it's the best measure to use. NC in 2008 (I live there so I'm going to use it as my example, is clearly a "Southern" state) was almost exactly split between Obama and Romney. In fact Obama won the state by less than 15,000 votes. In 2012, he lost the state receiving 48.4% of the vote to Romney's 50.4%. I don't think you can claim NC is a conservative state politically especially since we just elected a Republican Governor for the first time in the last 27 years. NC is like other states in that the rural counties tend to vote more heavily Republican while the urban counties tend to vote more heavily Democrat. Either way, as a toss up state in the last Presidential election, NC is not clearly liberal or conservative.
2. Traditional - Too broad a term to be meaningful. Are we talking furniture or shoes or dog breeds?
3. Polite - I didn't teach my kids to use "sir" or "ma'am". Nor did anyone I know. And in my close to 40 years living in NC, I've only been called "ma'am" a handful of times and in every case by someone older than me! Perhaps this was true in 1950, but has definitely fallen out of fashion in the intervening 63 years, at least in NC.
4. Gun Culture - We've already discussed this one. I don't know anyone who owns a gun (or at least no one has shared that information with me). I don't know anyone who hunts. I don't know anyone who has given guns as gifts for special occasions. Of course, that's just anecdotal evidence. A better measure is the number of guns per capita in any one state. I found a list by state and here's what I found: the top 5 gun owning states beginning at #1 are Kentucky, Utah, Montana, Wyoming and Alaska. 1 Southern state and 4 Western states. Numbers 6-10 are: West Virginia, South Dakota, North Dakota, Arkansas and Alabama. So in the top 10, 4 are Southern states and 6 are outside of the South. My home state of NC comes in at #34, lower than, just to name a few, New Hampshire, Illinois, Connecticut, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and Maine. We have a gun culture in the US and the numbers prove it's by no means any worse (and frequently better) in the South.
5. Fascination with the Military - I tried multiple Google searches in different ways to find statistics of the number of people joining a branch of the military by state. No information could be found. I could find the number of active service personnel stationed in any state, but that speaks to where they are stationed not where they enlisted. Even if the stats showed that the military is populated solely by Southerners, that would just support a label of "more willing to serve". That willingness could be based on family tradition, lack of other opportunities, patriotism or a host of other influences. Of course, that may not be on what you based your fascination assumption. If it's just your experience, then mine is, once again, 180 degrees from yours. I know one friend that has a son who attended West Point and is now an Army officer. Not one kid, male or female, in either of my kids graduating classes went to a military college or US service academy. I never hear anyone discussing the military outside of a desire to bring our troops home. But again, you weren't specific about what this item meant so I can't address it with any accuracy.
6. More religious - Again, this is based on your opinion formed via your limited experiences in the South. My experiences have been different. No one has ever asked me if I attend church, much less where I attend church. I know people of many religions, but they don't interject their religious beliefs into everyday conversation. I don't ever hear discussions on religion with the exception of a major news story with a religious component like 9/11. During that time, I heard lots of discussion about religion as I suspect everyone in the country did.
7. More Corporal punishment - Again, not sure how to quantify this issue. You seem to think that in the South parents and educators are still running around with paddles, switches and belts lying in wait for a kid to cross some line. I never used corporal punishment with my kids. They never attended a school that used it either. In NC, 95 out of the 115 school districts forbid any form of corporal punishment. IMO, it should be all of them and hopefully will be. Of course, from what I read on the internet, Walmart does allow spanking in its stores and parents all over the country are taking advantage. I don't ever shop there so I can't report on that trend first hand.
You keep harping on this supposed "Yankee" issue. I would think that unless one is discussing the baseball team, Yankee would be considered a rude term. So, if people in the South are more polite, at least according to your list, how is it possible that all those polite people are running around constantly insulting others with that term?
You believe you "know" the South and are therefore qualified to sit in judgement of the entire region and those that live there? You're not. Your "definition" of the South is based on old stereotypes, personal anecdotes, conjecture and supposition. I could likewise "define" any other region of the country using your criteria, but I wouldn't have anymore credibility than you do, Bless your Heart.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
Yes! There does seem to be a hostility towards higher education. I have heard the term "North east liberal intellectual" bantered about quite a bit.There are also a proliferation of Christan and highly conservative colleges in the south.
Some examples - Bob Jones University, Oral Roberts University, Liberty University, Southeastern University, Evangel University, Christiandom College, Southwestern University, Harding College and University of Dallas. Most of these are fundamentalist Protestant but two are ultra conservative Catholic.
Since desegregation, Southerners have found a way around that also. With the invention of the church related Christian Schools that are almost all white, do not teach evolution, focus on the "Three Rs" and employ curricula that was developed at Pensacola Christian College and Bob Jones University.
The latter of those fine institutions did not at one point, permit interracial dating.
Exactly, and in fact didn't the infamous Scopes Monkey Trial take place in TN, where a high school teacher, John Scopes, was accused of violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which made it unlawful to teach evolution in any state-funded school?!!
And the point isn't to bash 'em, it's to acknowledge the reality and ask, why is it like that?
Exactly, and in fact didn't the infamous Scopes Monkey Trial take place in TN, where a high school teacher, John Scopes, was accused of violating Tennessee's Butler Act, which made it unlawful to teach evolution in any state-funded school?!!
And the point isn't to bash 'em, it's to acknowledge the reality and ask, why is it like that?
Uh... the Scopes Money Trail was in 1925. If people want to discuss the reality of why parts of the South USED to be like that 88 years ago, that seems reasonable to me. To take an event from close to 100 years ago and use it to prove what the South is like TODAY, not so much.
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I tried to return to ATL, and even considered Charlotte, but I got cold feet about making such a schlep from the other side of the country. That means I think the South is just fine. However, there are still cultural markers in the region which divide the typical person from New Jersey from the typical person from Mississippi. The chief one I see is the communication style: lay the cards out on the table, or hold a few closer to the vest.
Pensacola Christian College, nah. I'll bet they have a course called "Indoctrination of the Catholic Heathen." Just kidding.
