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Old 03-21-2013, 04:41 PM
 
14,379 posts, read 14,203,333 times
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I've been giving the chance a million times, and I've never done it. Rape is an option, for most guys part of the sexual experience is that the girl wants to have sex with you. Forcing her against her will removes all form of stimulation from my point of view and compounding it with her being emotional abused on top of it means I would rather abstain my entire life before I would to have sex.
I've heard it said if you listen to someone long enough, you'll finally find something they say you agree with. This is it. There is nothing about rape that I find remotely sexually stimulating. On the contrary, I find it sad and depressing.

I do think though that the article I linked to from South Africa does show the power of culture and environment. One would have to be an "idiot" to ignore that.

Susan Brownmiller wrote "Against Our Will" back in the 1970's. The book documents situations of mass rape. What all these situations have in common is a break down in "law and order" which generally occurred during wars or armed conflicts. The best protection women and men (yes some men are raped) have against being raped is to have a good judicial system in place. Whether an offender does five years in prison, ten years in prison, or life is less important than the fact that the punishment itself be swift and sure.

That simple fact seems to elude many. End rape totally? I can't see that ever happening. It can be kept within bounds though.

Last edited by markg91359; 03-21-2013 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:34 AM
 
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I agree with the OP that if you can try a 17 year old as an adult for murder, you should be able to try a 16/17 year old as an adult for rape. I also agree that the punishments for sexual abuse are often far too lax per the devastation it causes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
2. It seems they were all drunk at different levels which means that the decision making abilities are impaired.
If someone is drunk when they murder someone, how much would their sentence be reduced? Sentencing for rape should not be reduced simply because the perpetrator was drunk. That is no excuse.

Quote:
3. I do not think they beat up the girl. I also do not know if they got her drunk on purpose to rape her. However, I believe that was not the case so there was no forced rape.
All rape is forced... whether it is violently forced or not is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is whether they got her drunk on purpose. If the victim was unable to consent, they were unable to consent.

Quote:
5. In the past did the girl gave any indication of agreeing to sex with any of them? That does not negate the fact that it is not an excuse to have sex with her. However, if they were drunk and not at their full decision making capacities maybe they thought it was OK with her.
Consent to sex in the past is not consent to sex in the future. Obviously they thought it was okay to have sex with her... this does not mean it was not rape, or that they should not receive a harsher punishment than they did.

Quote:
Now, compare that case with a guy that is let us say 30 years old and lures a young lady of that age by the use of drugs or by force, do you think the young men and him should get the exact same type of punishment? That is what juries and the law consider.
That man should have harsher punishment than 3-5 years. The boys in this case should have a harsher punishment than 1 year. Instead of sympathizing with abusers, we should consider the best ways to reduce such statistics which literally devastate lives forever. Education & harsher penalties is the only way.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:27 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,541,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethreefoldme View Post
I agree with the OP that if you can try a 17 year old as an adult for murder, you should be able to try a 16/17 year old as an adult for rape. I also agree that the punishments for sexual abuse are often far too lax per the devastation it causes.



If someone is drunk when they murder someone, how much would their sentence be reduced? Sentencing for rape should not be reduced simply because the perpetrator was drunk. That is no excuse.



All rape is forced... whether it is violently forced or not is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is whether they got her drunk on purpose. If the victim was unable to consent, they were unable to consent.



Consent to sex in the past is not consent to sex in the future. Obviously they thought it was okay to have sex with her... this does not mean it was not rape, or that they should not receive a harsher punishment than they did.



That man should have harsher punishment than 3-5 years. The boys in this case should have a harsher punishment than 1 year. Instead of sympathizing with abusers, we should consider the best ways to reduce such statistics which literally devastate lives forever. Education & harsher penalties is the only way.
I can see when people get so emotional and objectivity is out the window. What to do next, making comments that were not in the message.

No sympathy was ever expressed for the abusers. So the comment is irrelevant.

The bottom line was that the legal system allows for degree of punishments for different reasons. You do not like it, great. I respect your opinion. However, that's what it is. I won't go any further explaining what I already explained and you just did not like.

For the sake of argument, you stated how much punishment. Based on what? YOUR own views! Others differ on that. Why? Because it is a very subjective topic. A topic that gets people so emotional as I can see you have. Others may think your are soft on punishment and other may think you demand more than necessary.
Emotions are fine. We all are human. However, it works better when we keep emotions at bay with logic and reason, not start making judgements on others that do not agree with your views.

Lastly, when someone makes statements like "Education and harsher penalties is the only way." is an indicator of a closed mind, my way or the highway. Does not keep an open mind to other views. Take care.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,738 posts, read 2,072,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
You lost that fight years ago. In Coker v. Georgia, 433 U.S. 584 (1977) the United States Supreme Court held that the death penalty was cruel and unusual punishment for someone raping an adult. Possibly, molestation of a child could still be a constitutional basis for imposing the death penalty. Although, I am unaware of any states that have tried to do so. Having the death penalty for rape is really a pretty bad idea if you think about it. If a perpetrator knew rape would result in the death penalty more victims would end up being murdered, so that there would be no witness to the crime. That's a result that no one wants.



I interpreted the post differently than you. I think the poster, like me, just realizes these problems have been with us since the beginning of humankind. Ideally, we could eliminate rape, but its unlikely. The best bet is to reduce the numbers. The best strategy for doing so is open and frank discussion of the problem. Penalties for rape--should like any other crime--reflect the seriousness of the offense. Breaking into a woman's apartment and forcing her to have sex at knife point is horrendously serious and calls for a very long prison sentence. Rape in the circumstance which occurred in this case is not as serious as that and should be punished with a lesser penalty. I'm not against what the judge did in that case. The most important thing is that punishment should be swift and sure and that being a rapist should be highly stigmatic.



I feel exactly the opposite. Murder is the ultimate crime, not rape. Death is final and nothing in the world can fix or heal it. In short, when there is life there is hope. Psychological trauma from rape and other catastrophes can be healed or ameliorated with therapy, with medications, and support from society. Much of it depends on the willingness of the victim to want to move on with their life. America is a society where many people have had to rebuild their lives from financial ruin and natural disaster. My mother rebuilt her life after having been run over by a car and suffering crippling injuries that almost killed her. I wouldn't try to tell her that rape is the worst thing that could happen to a person. I suspect, she'd laugh in your face.
I totally agree. I'm a survivor of childhood sex abuse, and totally believe that where there's life, there's hope and the possibility to heal. Murder is the ultimate offense against a person, it takes away all potential. And as far as the death penalty, plenty of people have been falsely accused of rape and molestation. Bring the D.P. into rape accusation situation and I can see blood feuds coming back into vogue.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:31 PM
 
374 posts, read 720,616 times
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In a logical world, convicted violent rape would result in castration and 6 weeks in prison. Very cost effective and 100% success rate on repeat offenders.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,738 posts, read 2,072,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
In a logical world, convicted violent rape would result in castration and 6 weeks in prison. Very cost effective and 100% success rate on repeat offenders.
Not really, there's always a broomstick or other objects. Rape isn't' always about sex. It's often about anger, power, and feelings of inadequacy.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:51 PM
 
374 posts, read 720,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by faeryedark View Post
Not really, there's always a broomstick or other objects. Rape isn't' always about sex. It's often about anger, power, and feelings of inadequacy.
Lop off a man's genitals and tell me how powerful, sexually driven, and authoritative he becomes.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,738 posts, read 2,072,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenere View Post
Lop off a man's genitals and tell me how powerful, sexually driven, and authoritative he becomes.
Revenge and anger are powerful motivators
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:57 AM
 
Location: In a cave
945 posts, read 966,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I can see when people get so emotional and objectivity is out the window. What to do next, making comments that were not in the message.

No sympathy was ever expressed for the abusers. So the comment is irrelevant.

The bottom line was that the legal system allows for degree of punishments for different reasons. You do not like it, great. I respect your opinion. However, that's what it is. I won't go any further explaining what I already explained and you just did not like.

For the sake of argument, you stated how much punishment. Based on what? YOUR own views! Others differ on that. Why? Because it is a very subjective topic. A topic that gets people so emotional as I can see you have. Others may think your are soft on punishment and other may think you demand more than necessary.
Emotions are fine. We all are human. However, it works better when we keep emotions at bay with logic and reason, not start making judgements on others that do not agree with your views.

Lastly, when someone makes statements like "Education and harsher penalties is the only way." is an indicator of a closed mind, my way or the highway. Does not keep an open mind to other views. Take care.
A closed mind is one who cannot balance common sense. I've never heard of a grown man (adult) getting such a slap on the wrist for rape. As I've said before, while murder is typically considered the most heinous offense, but rape is 1a.

Common sense tells you there if these 1st degree felonies are considered the most heinous of offenses deemed by societies laws. How can their be two peers, close in jurisdiction, the exact same time in history and then literally have a 70 year variance in punishment?

Show me what society, world or person thinks a rapist should only spend 1-3 years in jail. Disgusting...
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:16 AM
 
14,379 posts, read 14,203,333 times
Reputation: 45695
Quote:
A closed mind is one who cannot balance common sense. I've never heard of a grown man (adult) getting such a slap on the wrist for rape. As I've said before, while murder is typically considered the most heinous offense, but rape is 1a.

Common sense tells you there if these 1st degree felonies are considered the most heinous of offenses deemed by societies laws. How can their be two peers, close in jurisdiction, the exact same time in history and then literally have a 70 year variance in punishment?

Show me what society, world or person thinks a rapist should only spend 1-3 years in jail. Disgusting...
In four years of posting on CDF, I've encountered some pretty forceful posters. You may in category of your own. You've called a number of people morons now you are telling another long-term poster that he has a closed mind and cannot balance common sense.

Let's take your statements here.

1. "I've never heard of a grown man (adult) getting such a slap on the wrist for rape".

Wrong. One offender was 16. One was 17. By legal definition, neither are adults. I don't think many people would regard a sentence of "at least one year" or "at least two years" as a slap on the wrist. Additionally, there is the stigma and repercussions of being a convicted sexual offender.

2. "Murder is considered the most heinous offense, but rape is 1A"

Wrong. Rape can be 1A. What your mind is unable to do is to wrap yourself around the notion that there are degrees of homicide and degrees of rape. If I run through a red light and drive into someones car and kill them, I may be guilty of negligent homicide. I am not in the same category that a serial killer is in.

By the same token, a rapist who breaks into a woman's home and rapes her at gunpoint is in a different category than someone who takes advantage of a woman who becomes intoxicated of her own volition. The age of the offenders makes a difference to most of us as well.

3. "Show me what society, world or person thinks a rapist should only spend 1-3 years in jail, disgusting".

Wrong. The problem with rape everywhere is that it is an under-reported crime. Some societies blame the woman for what happened. This kind of case wouldn't even have been brought in many countries. Sadly, they would have blamed the victim for what occurred. In Muslim countries, its the woman who would have been put in jail. In many Asian countries, shame would have kept the woman from reporting the crime at all.

I think what was done in this case was more appropriate. Cases like this should be brought and offenders should be convicted of rape. The age of the offender and the specific circumstances of the crime need to be considered and punishment should be proportionate with the gravity of the offense. This offense was serious, but not as serious as those I have described above.

Now, back to common sense. Perhaps, some day you may meet up with that. I see little evidence that the two of you have ever had a close relationship.
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