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Old 04-05-2013, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,057 posts, read 7,076,199 times
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US, Federal, state and local governments have been fighting against illegal drugs for decades with little or no success. I think I finally figured out why? These agencies seem to only fixate on the supply, rather than the demand side of the equation. This makes no sense as the government has gone after other vices like alcohol and smoking by making the user/ purchaser suffer through higher taxes and increased penalties for drunk drivers. But they use the opposite strategy with illegal drugs.

Maybe if they started punishing the user with stiff fines, short jail sentences and other penalties, the demand for the drugs would go down and we would have less of a problem. Someone tell me where I'm wrong. My guess is that the elites don't want this because then other rich, powerful and influential people, and lots of middle class people would suffer because of scandal. Getting caught by middle class people might cost them their job or worse, so the govt. avoids this problem and goes after the drug suppliers, which does not work.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:05 PM
 
2,226 posts, read 4,411,152 times
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There have been some outrageously harsh sentences for marijuana offenses, yet like alcohol during prohibition, it doesn't stop people from using if they want to.

Ten worst sentences for marijuana-related crimes - Salon.com

My personal feeling, as a non-user, is that legalization, regulation, and taxation would greatly reduce the amount of organized crime related to the production and distribution of marijuana. I also feel that treating pot like alcohol would prevent young people from feeling that if the government were exaggerating the dangers of pot (which has repeatedly been shown to be less harmful than alcohol and tobacco), they wouldn't assume they were also being misled about harder drugs like cocaine, meth, and heroin, which ARE very dangerous.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,237 posts, read 23,793,029 times
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the only problem with drugs is the country is making no money on it.
thats what the whole problem is.

buy a pack of cigs and the country collects taxes, but something else, and they dont.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:16 AM
 
5,971 posts, read 2,800,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktothefuture View Post
All the major players in the drug game could be brought in tomorrow if the cops/Feds wanted to. The Cartels pay them large sums of money to ensure this does not happen.
This.

Also look up all the large banks getting busted for laundering hundreds of millions or possibly billions in drug money. And they get a fine and no one goes to jail

The drug war is a scam.

Look up CIA drug trafficking.

The *** is up and because of the internet the truth is finally out there.

Their house of cards won't last much longer.
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Toronto
1,551 posts, read 2,689,892 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
US, Federal, state and local governments have been fighting against illegal drugs for decades with little or no success. I think I finally figured out why? These agencies seem to only fixate on the supply, rather than the demand side of the equation. This makes no sense as the government has gone after other vices like alcohol and smoking by making the user/ purchaser suffer through higher taxes and increased penalties for drunk drivers. But they use the opposite strategy with illegal drugs.

Maybe if they started punishing the user with stiff fines, short jail sentences and other penalties, the demand for the drugs would go down and we would have less of a problem. Someone tell me where I'm wrong. My guess is that the elites don't want this because then other rich, powerful and influential people, and lots of middle class people would suffer because of scandal. Getting caught by middle class people might cost them their job or worse, so the govt. avoids this problem and goes after the drug suppliers, which does not work.
Have you ever thought that the real problem with the War on Drugs is the War on Drugs itself, it's rationale and the whole notion of criminalizing the consumption of any substance?

Why is it that the American government pulled back from Prohibition in the thirties when they saw the damage it caused, the impossibility of enforcing it, the way organized crime had enriched itself from bootlegging, and the fact that no one ever stopped drinking, but they refuse to end the War on Drugs?

I have my answers and my arguments, formed after a decade of reading and research on the subject, but before I start explaining why all drugs should be legalized and taxed like alcohol and tobacco, and why America chooses to enforce a global interdiction effort against the sale and consumption of these drugs despite the fact that it has very little noticeable effect (other than driving up the price of narcotics, thereby enriching criminal syndicates beyond their wildest dreams, filling prisons to the brim with non-violent drug offenders, and creating an entire industry to catch, try, and imprison drug offenders), I want to see what others have to say.

These are some pertinent questions that I think should be answered, especially by those who support the War on Drugs:

- Why should certain drugs remain illegal?
- Why are these illegal drugs more harmful than alcohol or tobacco?
- Why do our cities and towns remain awash in drugs despite this massive War?
- Why should non-violent drug offenders be imprisoned?
- Are the effects of the drugs themselves worse than the effects of their criminalization (some effects of criminalization include tens of thousands of people imprisoned, addicts unable to receive adequate treatment because of the emphasis on law enforcement solutions, entire neighbourhoods fractured due to incarceration of their young men for drug offences, empowered and enriched organized crime syndicates, widespread corruption in law enforcement and the government, violence and murder on a scale that is equal to or greater than that of a true war, the erosion of our rights and freedoms justified by governments as necessary evils to catch drug traffickers, billions of taxpayer dollars spent each year to little or no effect, the denial of our right to dictate what we wish to put in our own bodies, and so on and so on)?
- Does fighting a war that cannot be won make any sense, especially if little or no noticeable progress is ever made?
- Will the legalization of drugs lead to many more people using and becoming addicted to those drugs?
- Is drug addiction a medical condition, a moral failing, or an indication of criminal tendencies in the addict?
- Can many illegal drugs be used recreationally like alcohol without resulting in addiction?
- In the case of the War on Drugs, has the cure proven to be worse than the disease?
- Who gains the most from drugs remaining illegal?
- Who loses the most from drugs remaining illegal?
- Who stands to lose the most if drugs are legalized?
- Why has the US government through agencies like the CIA actively engaged in drug trafficking inside and outside its own borders?
- Why does the US government enforce the criminalization of drugs through global treaties and threaten countries that wish to decriminalize or legalize certain drugs within their own borders with sanctions and other forms of punishment?
- Does the War on Drugs actually make the likelihood of addiction in drug users higher, and does the criminalization of drugs lead to higher rates of drug abuse?
- What is the worst possible scenario of legalizing drugs? What is the most likely scenario?

I think all of these questions and others need to be addressed in a fair, objective discussion and debate about the merits of the Drug War and the question of whether or not drugs should be legalized. While I know this is an impossible wish, I do hope that people educate themselves on the topic before they post their views in this thread. Obviously government propaganda has been very effective in portraying illegal drugs as an unmitigated scourge to society and criminalization the only possible response, but if one puts aside the propaganda and researches the issue objectively, perhaps they can come to a well thought-out and informed opinion. I am interested to see how people respond.

Last edited by TOkidd; 04-13-2013 at 10:00 AM..
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Toronto
1,551 posts, read 2,689,892 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
the only problem with drugs is the country is making no money on it.
thats what the whole problem is.

buy a pack of cigs and the country collects taxes, but something else, and they dont.
Actually, the entire global economy depends on the billions of dollars earned from the sale of illegal drugs. Since most of the cash earned in drug transactions cannot be deposited in banks, it is generally spent on things like homes, cars, boats, jets, or laundered through legitimate businesses, injecting billions of dollars in cash into the global economy every year. Furthermore, drug kingpins who are unable to deposit their crates of American $100 bills keep them stashed away, leading to a lower supply of US currency that keeps the American dollar strong. How do you think the global economy would respond to a loss of hundreds of billions of dollars in ready cash every year? What would happen to the value of the American dollar if all those Benjamins stashed away in Mexico, South America, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Southeast Asia were suddenly put back into circulation?

Furthermore, the US economy also gains from the Drug War through the massive industry that has sprung up to prosecute it. Think of all the jobs it creates - all the law enforcement agents (including entire agencies dedicated to drugs), judges, prosecutors, lawyers, prison guards, prison builders, prison owners. Think about all the weapons and matériel built strictly for the drug police and the justice system, and then all the money from salaries that the cops, lawyers, judges, etc. who owe their jobs entirely to the War on Drugs put back into the country's coffers in the form of taxes and economic activity.

One must also think of all that cash, property and goods seized when police do make a drug bust. Where do you think all that cash goes? Back into government coffers. Where do you think all the money made from auctioning off houses, boats, cars, weapons, furniture, artwork and other items seized in raids goes? Back into the government's coffers.

The US government is making a fortune from the War on Drugs, and furthermore they have built an entire industry that employs millions from it both directly and incidentally. Do you think they are going to risk having all those billions in cold, hard cash taken out of the economy, or losing all those jobs that owe their existence solely to the Drug War? Never. And that is why drugs will always be illegal in America.

Last edited by TOkidd; 04-13-2013 at 10:04 AM..
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Old 04-13-2013, 09:15 PM
 
1,825 posts, read 1,351,465 times
Reputation: 1373
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
US, Federal, state and local governments have been fighting against illegal drugs for decades with little or no success. I think I finally figured out why? These agencies seem to only fixate on the supply, rather than the demand side of the equation. This makes no sense as the government has gone after other vices like alcohol and smoking by making the user/ purchaser suffer through higher taxes and increased penalties for drunk drivers. But they use the opposite strategy with illegal drugs.

Maybe if they started punishing the user with stiff fines, short jail sentences and other penalties, the demand for the drugs would go down and we would have less of a problem. Someone tell me where I'm wrong. My guess is that the elites don't want this because then other rich, powerful and influential people, and lots of middle class people would suffer because of scandal. Getting caught by middle class people might cost them their job or worse, so the govt. avoids this problem and goes after the drug suppliers, which does not work.

Would you favor short jail sentences for all alcohol & tobacco users? If not, why should there be jail sentences for cannabis when over 1 billion have used it since our earliest recorded history, with no proof that anyone has died as a direct result of use? Plus cannabis has 126 medical uses where it sometimes works better than pills.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Striving for Avalon
1,411 posts, read 2,004,571 times
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I have been considering the issue of effective drug prohibition as I've been reading about the Opium Wars and Lin Tse-hsü (Zexu). He managed to accomplish a relative miracle given his circumstances (1840s communication, ponderous Chinese bureaucracy/modus operandi, relatively awful information/intelligence).

However, it would be impossible to replicate in the United States.

1. Commissioner Lin was someone who reported directly to the Emperor, being empowered with extraordinary emergency powers. While the US occasionally produces a "drug czar" or other such nonsense, their actual power is highly limited to propaganda. A modern day American Commissioner Lin is utterly unconstitutional.

2. Commissioner Lin was a learned scholar of accomplished feats in good governance. He was also incorruptible. Do we really expect someone like that to ever to get so close to such power in the American political system?

3. We don't have the stomach/sensibilities (as a liberal democratic society) to enact his solutions, such as mass coordinated arrests of dealers, smugglers, corrupt law enforcement, and users....followed by the executions. Had the British Navy not enforced "free trade" (as some at the time saw it), Chinese opium use would have become a virtual non-issue. His full spectrum assault on trade & consumption did yield results.

4. Drug use is not seen as a national emergency.

5. There isn't a consensus on marijuana's place in society. Attitudes range from "hang 'em high" to a more libertarian "it's not the government's business."

The current US government approach is probably one of the worst ways to tackle the issue. In addition to the economic waste of dollars leaving the legitimate economy, the US war on drugs created a massive bureaucracy of limited effectiveness. The existing legal prohibitions, lack of effective enforcement, and widespread availability of narcotics makes a mockery of the rule of law.

Oh well.
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:12 PM
 
Location: SGV
21,853 posts, read 8,186,257 times
Reputation: 8775
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Actually, the entire global economy depends on the billions of dollars earned from the sale of illegal drugs. Since most of the cash earned in drug transactions cannot be deposited in banks, it is generally spent on things like homes, cars, boats, jets, or laundered through legitimate businesses, injecting billions of dollars in cash into the global economy every year. Furthermore, drug kingpins who are unable to deposit their crates of American $100 bills keep them stashed away, leading to a lower supply of US currency that keeps the American dollar strong. How do you think the global economy would respond to a loss of hundreds of billions of dollars in ready cash every year? What would happen to the value of the American dollar if all those Benjamins stashed away in Mexico, South America, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Southeast Asia were suddenly put back into circulation?

Furthermore, the US economy also gains from the Drug War through the massive industry that has sprung up to prosecute it. Think of all the jobs it creates - all the law enforcement agents (including entire agencies dedicated to drugs), judges, prosecutors, lawyers, prison guards, prison builders, prison owners. Think about all the weapons and matériel built strictly for the drug police and the justice system, and then all the money from salaries that the cops, lawyers, judges, etc. who owe their jobs entirely to the War on Drugs put back into the country's coffers in the form of taxes and economic activity.

One must also think of all that cash, property and goods seized when police do make a drug bust. Where do you think all that cash goes? Back into government coffers. Where do you think all the money made from auctioning off houses, boats, cars, weapons, furniture, artwork and other items seized in raids goes? Back into the government's coffers.

The US government is making a fortune from the War on Drugs, and furthermore they have built an entire industry that employs millions from it both directly and incidentally. Do you think they are going to risk having all those billions in cold, hard cash taken out of the economy, or losing all those jobs that owe their existence solely to the Drug War? Never. And that is why drugs will always be illegal in America.
Your last two posts were dead on. Unfortunately you are probably already in Gitmo after writing this. Then again, since I'm agreeing with you I may get lucky and be put in the cell next to yours.

Signed,

A guy with 2 criminal justice degrees who works in corrections
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Maryland not Murlin
8,187 posts, read 21,763,813 times
Reputation: 6116
Quote:
Originally Posted by augiedogie View Post
US, Federal, state and local governments have been fighting against illegal drugs for decades with little or no success. I think I finally figured out why? These agencies seem to only fixate on the supply, rather than the demand side of the equation. This makes no sense as the government has gone after other vices like alcohol and smoking by making the user/ purchaser suffer through higher taxes and increased penalties for drunk drivers. But they use the opposite strategy with illegal drugs.

Maybe if they started punishing the user with stiff fines, short jail sentences and other penalties, the demand for the drugs would go down and we would have less of a problem. Someone tell me where I'm wrong. My guess is that the elites don't want this because then other rich, powerful and influential people, and lots of middle class people would suffer because of scandal. Getting caught by middle class people might cost them their job or worse, so the govt. avoids this problem and goes after the drug suppliers, which does not work.
Possession is illegal...pretty much every where. However, particular offenses and circumstances will vary by State, but in the least fines, even for tiny amounts of grass, are issued. The War on Drugs has failed primarily because "they" went/go after the lowest people on the ladder; the street dealers. Occasionally a big dog will get nabbed, but no one is really going after the major players, even though they could.

The WoD also failed because when it comes to users the aim has been on jailing users instead of rehab. Sure a crack addict or junkie will kick in jail, as they have no choice, only to begin using again the second they are released. It's kind of hard to sell something if you have no customers.

Middle class and wealthy individuals don't get caught as often because they are being supplied from, consume in, and hang out with more "respectable" circumstances. They also have a tendency to hide their use, or at least not brag about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Have you ever thought that the real problem with the War on Drugs is the War on Drugs itself, it's rationale and the whole notion of criminalizing the consumption of any substance?

Why is it that the American government pulled back from Prohibition in the thirties when they saw the damage it caused, the impossibility of enforcing it, the way organized crime had enriched itself from bootlegging, and the fact that no one ever stopped drinking, but they refuse to end the War on Drugs?
To start, the U.S., at that time, was composed of residents who immigrated from a country that has/had a long standing history of beer culture.

And two, government earns a large sum of money from alcohol tax. So when Prohibition hit, local, state, and Federal governments lost out on tons of money. Of course they didn't just shrug their shoulders and say that's it, they made up the difference by raising income tax. Some wealthy people, including the DuPont family, wanted to repeal the 18th Amendment because they believed by doing so income tax would be lowered if not outright removed. These wealthy Americans and Industrialist lobbied hard to repeal Prohibition, won, and of course income tax stayed. I have always said, and will continue to do so, that drugs will be legalized once the U.S. figures out how to tax and regulate them in the same way they do alcohol and tobacco.
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