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Old 07-10-2013, 03:15 PM
 
645 posts, read 1,068,389 times
Reputation: 1764

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhawkins74 View Post
So your experience comes from an impoverished black area? So just like many, you judge the masses on the actions of the few. The difference is I do not hate you or dislike you because I know your feelings are based on ignorance. But I do find it quite funny, when people like you are submitting your resumes to companies like mine.
Oh the voice of reason... This happened to me in Kinston, N.C., Harrisburg, Lebanon, Lancaster, York, and Reading Pennsylvania as well as Austin and Dallas Texas.

Whether the area was impoverished or well to do, I encountered the same problem. I'm whitey, a 6'3" light skin, eyes, hair muscular man. I stick out in crowd of white people, so in a sea of black faces... Hence, I'm going to get attention due to the fact that I stick out more than the average person does no matter where I go.

Moreover, I've never encountered this problem with blacks from Africa, Europe, or black Hispanics, and I've been around a lot of black Hispanics in my day.

The only good thing to come out of the black man's hatred of whitey has been that I learned how to speak, read, and write the Spanish language because I didn't hang out in the black area of town due to the less than warming reception of the black community, and I hung around in the Hispanic part of town.

For the comments in bold, when people like me do submit our resumes to companies like yours, we get the job unless there's an obvious demographics quota the white man's usually excluded from. We get it because we're intelligent enough to adapt to situations, know when to not speak, and the like. Furthermore, your "companies like mine" are pretty broad and opened for speculation. Are you implying that they're black owned/dominated and that you're black? If so, I liked your choice of words because I hear black people complaining about word usage that you've just used.

Black educated Americans that are well to do are usually worse to deal with because, or so I've been told by them, "We don't need any help from white people,' or 'I'm educated unlike your white..." It seems to be a curse of the black American race that only they know, anything about a situation, and they're always better than everybody else whether they're from the ghetto or rich suburbs, and that's been my experience. I haven't met every black person in the word, and I am strictly speaking about black Americans born and raised here. That should be obvious to anyone, and I don't understand how people claiming to be better than me, more intelligent, and the like can make such simpleton statements. This isn't rocket science. Obviously the bad experiences I've had with black Americans have been from the vocal ones, so who knows if the silent ones are rare, the majority, and the like. What you seem to be unable to grasp, and I'll state this again, this only has happened with me and black Americans from every demographic. I have never / rarely / one off occasions encountered this from Hispanics of all colors and blacks from other parts of the world. If you read through my original post and were not consumed with some sort of passion, you should have read that this has been about my experiences with black Americans. Hence, it's not my ignorance as you felt the need to label, but rather my experiences. My experiences are neither right nor wrong, and the only ignorance about it would have been from the black 'Merican community and your obvious bias.

However, your points are excellent because once again, it's whitey's fault...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Poor manners, lack of civility, lack of education, immature actions, self indulgent, these are just some of the traits that you find in the ghettos of the world. If you had travelled much you'd know that the cities of Rio, Mexico city, Caracas, and many more, have these kinds of people. But, what do these people have in common? Poverty and the lack of support from the upper ranges of their society. It's not about being black, it's about whether or not your life experiences have been positive or not. Black people from all over America have been living a good decent working class or middle and upper class life, they are educated, they are polite, they go to church and care about their community, you are confused as to the reasons for poor behavior, you think it's because someone has dark skin, you need to educate yourself..........
And yet another person telling me that I need to educate myself, but can't see their own glaring errors. I don't see how you came to your conclusion if you read the post you've quoted in its entirety. My black skinned Dominican friends were discriminated against even more than I was by the black communities I've lived in.

I've been in many poor parts of the United States black, white, and Hispanic, Caribbean Islands, Puerto Rico, and I've lived in a dirt poor Mexican town, yet I never received the discrimination in those places like I did from black Americans. Moreover, if you're going to make sweeping statements, I'd suggest you tone down your argument because you're guilty of the thing you're accusing me of.
And like the poster prior to you, you seemed to have this air that you're so much better educated and intelligent than I am, yet all I talked about were things that I have personally experienced, so I'm uneducated, inexperienced, and it's somehow my fault that I experienced what I did. That is truly interesting... I also got to deal with 4 years of discrimination in the USMC, and it was almost exclusively from blacks.

I clearly stated that I am quite sure that all the blacks in the regions where I was weren't the same, but unfortunately you chose not to read that part and labeled me...

They were my experiences, and if you don't like them, I honestly don't know what to say.

Cheers and thanks for reading,
bolillo

Last edited by bolillo_loco; 07-10-2013 at 03:51 PM.. Reason: No Rhodes Scholar
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:24 PM
 
9,822 posts, read 13,910,287 times
Reputation: 10708
Though it is a single experience, I can only speak for real life situation I witnessed.
My grand aunt lived in very nice immigrants various kinds area in Phila, Warnock Str. She told me, people lived like one large family and no one cared, if you were Italian, Poish, or American. Every evening, people will pull tables out, women will bring their cooked foods and it was jovial ongoing potluck pretty much year long.
Then they had one "....." family move in. Nice family. But somehow, white flight started. More moved in, more moved out, and she missed the point of no return, when property value fell so low, she could not sell the house.
I visited her in 90 and 91. Her house in the block was only white person house left. Neighbor next door was selling crack. The rest of the area, for several blocks, was trashed beyond any repair. As in - you need to shoot a post apocalyptic movie, you need no props, that's what it looked like. For blocks around. Finally, she was robbed and moved to a Ukrainian assisted living.
I have friends that were forced to move out of their nice house, and get themselves into large mortgage, because of their Asian neighbors.
Personally, I am a-racial. I do not care. Unfortunately, life has tendency to present it differently. That's why I live out in sticks, and will never go into a subdivision again, unless it's priced so high, that "weeds" can't get in.
Btw, when did $80 000 per family become considered "rich" hood?
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Summit, NJ
1,388 posts, read 1,271,837 times
Reputation: 1570
It all stems from people not wanting to live near downtown. Urban areas are not crime-ridden by their nature, but in cities where many jobs have left, downtown shopping has left, and the downtown core has nothing going on for it, people will flee to the suburbs because the city is no longer an attractive option.

Boston, NYC, Washington DC, and others have effectively reversed white flight, and in fact have a minority flight due to rising housing costs. This is because living downtown is desirable. But in many smaller cities, and some larger cities (Detroit) white flight continues, since the downtowns are still fairly dead (maybe outside of a small neighborhood or two).

For historical reasons, the majority of impoverished people in cities are black or latino. Therefore, many white people see these people as a sign of poverty and crime, and if they happen to live in a city that is not on the upswing, they have a fear that their neighborhood will become crime-ridden.

I tried to be as objective as possible.
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Old 07-10-2013, 06:18 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 3,028,739 times
Reputation: 10007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bolillo_loco View Post
Oh the voice of reason... This happened to me in Kinston, N.C., Harrisburg, Lebanon, Lancaster, York, and Reading Pennsylvania as well as Austin and Dallas Texas.

Whether the area was impoverished or well to do, I encountered the same problem. I'm whitey, a 6'3" light skin, eyes, hair muscular man. I stick out in crowd of white people, so in a sea of black faces... Hence, I'm going to get attention due to the fact that I stick out more than the average person does no matter where I go.

Moreover, I've never encountered this problem with blacks from Africa, Europe, or black Hispanics, and I've been around a lot of black Hispanics in my day.

The only good thing to come out of the black man's hatred of whitey has been that I learned how to speak, read, and write the Spanish language because I didn't hang out in the black area of town due to the less than warming reception of the black community, and I hung around in the Hispanic part of town.

For the comments in bold, when people like me do submit our resumes to companies like yours, we get the job unless there's an obvious demographics quota the white man's usually excluded from. We get it because we're intelligent enough to adapt to situations, know when to not speak, and the like. Furthermore, your "companies like mine" are pretty broad and opened for speculation. Are you implying that they're black owned/dominated and that you're black? If so, I liked your choice of words because I hear black people complaining about word usage that you've just used.

Black educated Americans that are well to do are usually worse to deal with because, or so I've been told by them, "We don't need any help from white people,' or 'I'm educated unlike your white..." It seems to be a curse of the black American race that only they know, anything about a situation, and they're always better than everybody else whether they're from the ghetto or rich suburbs, and that's been my experience. I haven't met every black person in the word, and I am strictly speaking about black Americans born and raised here. That should be obvious to anyone, and I don't understand how people claiming to be better than me, more intelligent, and the like can make such simpleton statements. This isn't rocket science. Obviously the bad experiences I've had with black Americans have been from the vocal ones, so who knows if the silent ones are rare, the majority, and the like. What you seem to be unable to grasp, and I'll state this again, this only has happened with me and black Americans from every demographic. I have never / rarely / one off occasions encountered this from Hispanics of all colors and blacks from other parts of the world. If you read through my original post and were not consumed with some sort of passion, you should have read that this has been about my experiences with black Americans. Hence, it's not my ignorance as you felt the need to label, but rather my experiences. My experiences are neither right nor wrong, and the only ignorance about it would have been from the black 'Merican community and your obvious bias.

However, your points are excellent because once again, it's whitey's fault...



And yet another person telling me that I need to educate myself, but can't see their own glaring errors. I don't see how you came to your conclusion if you read the post you've quoted in its entirety. My black skinned Dominican friends were discriminated against even more than I was by the black communities I've lived in.

I've been in many poor parts of the United States black, white, and Hispanic, Caribbean Islands, Puerto Rico, and I've lived in a dirt poor Mexican town, yet I never received the discrimination in those places like I did from black Americans. Moreover, if you're going to make sweeping statements, I'd suggest you tone down your argument because you're guilty of the thing you're accusing me of.
And like the poster prior to you, you seemed to have this air that you're so much better educated and intelligent than I am, yet all I talked about were things that I have personally experienced, so I'm uneducated, inexperienced, and it's somehow my fault that I experienced what I did. That is truly interesting... I also got to deal with 4 years of discrimination in the USMC, and it was almost exclusively from blacks.

I clearly stated that I am quite sure that all the blacks in the regions where I was weren't the same, but unfortunately you chose not to read that part and labeled me...

They were my experiences, and if you don't like them, I honestly don't know what to say.

Cheers and thanks for reading,
bolillo

The forum is "great debates" and thus leaves the door open to all kinds of conjecture, it just is what it is. My opinions of the conditions in Americas worst ghettos have been gained from my own experience living in these large cities and seeing the social destruction of a large part of the populace. Yes, they can be sullen, violent, loud and boisterous, vicious hateful people, but, they also can be just the opposite of all those things. I'm always suspicious of those who posture themselves as just another simple soul with no axe to grind, only to discover through conversation with them that they are in fact carrying a huge burden of bias. And yes you are correct in saying that the hatred goes both ways.

Are you surprised that many black people aren't of the "look down at the shoes" kind of people? Your post seemed to be a type of tirade about your reasons for your own white flight when I thought that most people knew what white flight was all about in general terms. Rude treatment and real discrimination are completely two different things, blacks in this country have been institutionally discriminated against, that doesn't mean rudeness from whites it means no jobs, housing, eating in cafes, dating, all those things have changed but the aftertaste is still there and so is the fact of high unemployment, poor housing, and lack of education among blacks. Hatred of blacks is one reason that so many of these types of threads brings out the worst America has to offer.

My assertion that you could use more education wasn't a jab at your use of language, nor was it about the anger that you so adequately expressed, it was the fact that this problem of social friction among blacks and whites has reasons, and education of a social nature, at the least gives us a look see into the mindset of those we can't normally fathom. Many people have a good, even formal education without being fully aware of the reasons for much of what ails us as a nation. It's not hard to read the many books on the subject of social relations in America, but not reading them leaves us with nothing more than our own personal angle to contemplate.

Thanks for your post, I'd have to say that I'm way more inclined to read someones post if it is well thought out, (even when I wholeheartedly disagree) and at least of a length that allows us a measure of depth of thinking on the posters part. I'm not against the fact of your story, I know plenty of people who feel the same way, but I'm left wondering what people such as yourself would consider to be a do-able solution to our racial friction.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:56 PM
 
3,325 posts, read 3,264,474 times
Reputation: 8438
You want to know the real reason? It's because Caucasian families think that a substantial African American (AA) population in the schools will lead to poor schools due to perceived AA student misbehavior and perceived lack of academic motivation. They are also afraid that AA children will behave aggressively toward their children in school. For this reason, when the proportion of AA children in the schools rises over about one third, Caucasian families move. AA families move into their houses, and the school population rapidly changes to predominantly AA.

Whether this perception is true or not, I cannot say. But Caucasians perceive this to be true, so they move.

As for "gentrification", that is a result of wealthier people, of any race, appreciating that some slum areas have the advantage of being much closer to the benefits that a city center can offer - proximity to jobs and cultural institutions - while having very low property values. So some pioneers brave the crime and dangerous schools to move into the area. More follow. Property values rise, and the poor are forced to move as rents and property taxes go up. Eventually, the area becomes middle to upper middle class, and likely less AA.

No one race "owns" an area. In this country, people of any color can buy anywhere, as long as they can pay to live there. It is simply natural that the poor are forced to leave areas considered more desirable, as prices rise, and that when the poor move into an area, bringing social problems with them, those who are able to leave do so. When Caucasians do not perceive that a critical mass of AA students changes the social and academic climate of the public schools, they will not move away.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
30,422 posts, read 9,097,651 times
Reputation: 28966
...
(4) Fear. Whites are afraid to live around people who their ancestors once subjugated. When blacks become the majority, will they be prejudiced against whites? ...


You're making two assumptions: 1) That whites acknowledge that their ancestors "subjugated" others, that all whites' ancestors "subjugated" others, or that those who do acknowledge it view themselves responsible for it and, 2) that no blacks are currently prejudiced against whites.
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Old 07-11-2013, 12:55 PM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,422 posts, read 16,691,770 times
Reputation: 16430
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
That is what is being implied, many people today are of the mindset that equates black people with poor behavior, rather than seeing the ghetto as a breeding place for poor behavior. Upper class blacks have been around for ages but the stereotype of black Americans comes from ghetto behavior and all that that environment implies. White flight occurred during my own parents flight (1952) from a relatively small city to a all white suburb, we didn't see a black person until high school and later, in the service.

The post that I responded to was an outright attack on blacks, complete with the spelling of words commonly used by the uneducated blacks, so don't think I don't know when someone is making an attempt to malign a race of people based on his "experience". In scholarly circles this kind of contribution would be omitted just because of it's obvious bias. I know many white folks who have trouble speaking english so this attempt to malign was obvious.

Educated people generally know the ins and outs of those things they can discuss, poverty and racism have an old relationship in this country and that should be included in any discourse on either subject. It's not that white flight is misunderstood..That is what most would like us to think, but, I know that the ghetto is a place most people, black or white, would rather not live. The problem is that many blamed the blacks for the disintegration of their cities, forgetting that this new populace was entrenched in poverty and considered a second class citizen by most of white America, that is NOT deflection, that's fact.....

Thanks for your one liner contribution though.....It isn't much of a debate effort, but.................
The post you responded to was one person's experience in a neighborhood which shut him out. If it was a black man talking about a white neighborhood would it be called an 'outright attack on whites'? I think this man had every right to not wish to be there and every right to be concerned about his kids. Neighbors should respect each other. If women were offering themselves and his son was attacked and the racial tone was as he said, no *wonder* he doesn't feel comfortable around blacks and how can you say he was racially motivated. This was his *experience*. I give him points for not leaving sooner. If it has left him uncomfortable around blacks, then it has and he had the right to say so without it being a racial slur. We all have choices. The behavior of those he describes is NOT respectful of their neighbors and should not be excused by calling the race card. Bad and disrespectful behavior towards others, especially neighbors is never justifable by excuses. White neighbors being disrespectful to their non white neighbors comes under the same heading.

If you want to begin to make things better expect something more from those who act like bottom feeders and do not give them excuses if they don't meet the expectations. Respect for others is universal and of no color or culture.

My neighborhood was mixed and then the bario started moving in. A kid threw a rock at my blond haired son. A mini gang on bicycles liked stopping cars and I refused to and told them they were going to get out of my way. Nobody broke in with our dogs but theft went way up. I still remember the idiot woman sitting on the lawn sewing or knitting or such and watching her older son beat up his younger brother.

Did I want to move? You bet I did. Did I want my son out of there? Who wouldn't? Do I have a bad taste in my mouth when you see the hispanic bario culture at action and would you say it was wrong for me to not want to live around hispanics who reflect that culture? I did move, but then so did everyone else, including the hispanic families who did not wish to live in this new invasive culture. People vote with their feet and we all did.

We all have our choices and that includes choosing not to be with some other 'group' if it makes you more comfortable, especially if you've had experience and do not wish to live near people who don't like you. I'd rather not live where there is a heavy concentration of hispanic culture and hear Spanish since it reminds me of how my home was stolen. This does not make me a hater but someone exercising my options. I very much liked it before when it was just people and of varying origion and was one reason why we liked it. But you cannot force that kind of place and these uncivilized children ruined it. We *can* choose to not live with someone who does not make us feel comfortable and not be racially bias in the decision.
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Old 07-11-2013, 01:19 PM
Status: "happy again, no longer catless! t...." (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,422 posts, read 16,691,770 times
Reputation: 16430
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
The forum is "great debates" and thus leaves the door open to all kinds of conjecture, it just is what it is. My opinions of the conditions in Americas worst ghettos have been gained from my own experience living in these large cities and seeing the social destruction of a large part of the populace. Yes, they can be sullen, violent, loud and boisterous, vicious hateful people, but, they also can be just the opposite of all those things. I'm always suspicious of those who posture themselves as just another simple soul with no axe to grind, only to discover through conversation with them that they are in fact carrying a huge burden of bias. And yes you are correct in saying that the hatred goes both ways.

Are you surprised that many black people aren't of the "look down at the shoes" kind of people? Your post seemed to be a type of tirade about your reasons for your own white flight when I thought that most people knew what white flight was all about in general terms. Rude treatment and real discrimination are completely two different things, blacks in this country have been institutionally discriminated against, that doesn't mean rudeness from whites it means no jobs, housing, eating in cafes, dating, all those things have changed but the aftertaste is still there and so is the fact of high unemployment, poor housing, and lack of education among blacks. Hatred of blacks is one reason that so many of these types of threads brings out the worst America has to offer.

My assertion that you could use more education wasn't a jab at your use of language, nor was it about the anger that you so adequately expressed, it was the fact that this problem of social friction among blacks and whites has reasons, and education of a social nature, at the least gives us a look see into the mindset of those we can't normally fathom. Many people have a good, even formal education without being fully aware of the reasons for much of what ails us as a nation. It's not hard to read the many books on the subject of social relations in America, but not reading them leaves us with nothing more than our own personal angle to contemplate.

Thanks for your post, I'd have to say that I'm way more inclined to read someones post if it is well thought out, (even when I wholeheartedly disagree) and at least of a length that allows us a measure of depth of thinking on the posters part. I'm not against the fact of your story, I know plenty of people who feel the same way, but I'm left wondering what people such as yourself would consider to be a do-able solution to our racial friction.
How about dropping the racial,social and cultural tags and simply talk about humans. How about expecting respectable behavior towards other human beings and enforcing it with exculsion over excuses. And allowing that each of us responds to experience and may wish to aviod it being repeated without it being an attack on anyone.

The problem will never get solved while we line up in our squads and slap on a label. See individuals not groups. I personally do not want to live in a ghetto filled with anyone if they behave like the mini gangsters did in my neighborhood. I don't care WHO they are.

Above all we are all human and equipped with the same abilities to make choices. Those who go to the negative made those choices and live by the results. I'm sure that among the people who go with the flow are those who do not, but you don't see them out on the streets trying to sell themselves. Don't give the scummy side the notice they seek and make a space for those who do value respect to be seen and perhaps it would be a different picture. But who is making the scummy side the ones we see but the culture itself where others hide. Clean up your own little corner and then see what happens.

I was waiting for a bus once and was approached by two young black men. I went in the store and took the next bus. Not because they were black but because they were acting badly. The one said I should let them use my cell phone, and they were talking trash. The younger one tried to take it. He seemed clueless that it wasn't okay and said he just wanted to make a call. These kids were not failed by society but by those who raised them and never taught them how to respect others and if they were failed by any culture it was by their own. Their own failed them, and its not my responsibility to feel guilty over history. I would have waited for the next bus whatever they were with that behavior.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
26,877 posts, read 28,163,256 times
Reputation: 25993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red3311 View Post
short answer: not being robbed...I have lived in the "inner city" during college and I must say I love the suburbs a hell of a lot more....its just a pleasure to be around people that are like you... that think like you... that have money like you... and will look out for their neighbors...and it is really quiet here
I love how inner city is a euphemism for black. There are black majority areas in Oakland with an average income over $100k. They also don't have crime problems or other issues. There are about a dozen upper middle class areas in Oakland that are majority non-white. These are fine too.

People seem to confuse social class with ethnicity.

I don't live in the inner city or the burbs. My neighborhood is nearly evenly mixed across all the ethnic groups. (A little less Asian and Latino and a little more black and white at roughly 30% each). Average income is $85k or so.

We don't have crime issues (other than a package stealer), people look out for their neighbors and get along. There are a mix of native born Americans and even immigrants sprinkled in. An it is one of the safest and most desirable areas in town. Hmmmm.




I am on my phone, please forgive the typos.
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Old 07-13-2013, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Southwest Washington State
18,869 posts, read 12,490,390 times
Reputation: 24320
I know for a fact that in the St. Louis area beginning in the 1950s and later Black home buyers were directed to a few neighborhoods in the northern suburbs, or into the north city area. White flight ensued when they sought to "escape" their old neighborhoods. Black home buyers leaving the city of St. Louis continued to settle around these areas, and formerly white suburban towns became much more integrated.

Much of the "white flight" that occurred in this area caused whites to move to St. Charles County MO.

So, white flight has existed, in my personal experience. I have known about it for decades. However, I have never left an area for this reason.
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