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Old 08-15-2013, 11:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun View Post
Apparently in India they must Love the poor considering there are so many of them. This is not an 'American' phenomenon, even though many try to make it out it be
The causes of institutional poverty are the same no matter the country, India has a strict caste system that has marginalized tens of millions of it's citizens, social acceptance, education, housing, medical care, all are in short supply for these people on the bottom of the societal ladder.

In any nation one can find the causal conditions for poverty, they are mostly of the institutional kind, that's to say that those so afflicted are usually without opportunity on a scale that would allow a large portion of them to succeed financially.

Second class citizenry, usually falls to the ethnic/religious minorities of any country, I don't think most educated people think of poverty as an 'American' thing.........................

 
Old 08-15-2013, 12:25 PM
 
Location: South Portland, Maine
2,356 posts, read 4,936,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TOkidd View Post
Some interesting POV's. I hope people continue to post their ideas.

I'm wondering, though: in countries where there is no welfare, it seems there is much less of a tendency to scapegoat them. Is it that people resent having to pay taxes to help the poor in the US, so they assume that people who need welfare are all cheats and ne'er do-wells? Why does the image of the hard-working poor not exist in the US? Instead, it's anger about welfare, food stamps, illegal immigrants. Are Americans just reluctant to admit that their society is not as egalitarian as they want to believe - that the American Dream is not possible for everyone?
I can't disagree with MANY of the posts on here that talk about the poor and the statistic surrounding the poor indicating that their situation is a matter of chance or bad luck... that includes being born stupid! I will say that is NOT the case at all from my experiences..

and just for the record I am not talking about "working poor" There are many folks working their buts off in this country but just don't have the skill set or other... that enables them to ear a better living.

There is a vast and growing group of individuals who feel entitled to not work! People who absolutely abuse the system, are ignorant to the x-nth, and share none of the same values we hold.

This is where there is a divide in America! this is not about INCOME class.. this is about values! What causes a person to work two jobs.. they don't want to live in an area surrounded by classes people with no values! I know it doesn't sound nice but its the truth.

If I could live in a poor area without worrying about my car getting stolen, my wife mugged, being assaulted, my kids learning about sex in kindergarten, having to keep my windows closed at night so I don't have to listen to the drunken profanity laden domestics, trash and dog **** in the street, bed bugs, **** roaches, and a litany of other unpleasant things then why wouldn't I?

I used to work in one the worst areas of DC AKA the hood! the hood.. yea right. they lived in beautiful antique brick row houses no different then the ones on the "other" side of town accept the windows were broken, trash was in the yard and every once in while someone would be shot. But yet they called it the hood.. ... it was the classless ignorant residents that made it that way. Money will never fix it and in fact perpetuates it!

And its really unfortunate for the ones who are working exceedingly hard to better themselves only to see a larger and larger portion of their paycheck go to the government.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Upstate NY
30,405 posts, read 9,086,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Yes, they do. It's been no secret that most of America knows nothing about poverty causes, some think it's a condition that is the result of laziness, most think it's about fraud because they've been misinformed about the myth of the "great life" on welfare. Poverty and it's causes have been studied to no end in America, we probably have more data collected on all possible causes than most nations around the globe, and we still don't get it as a nation.

There have been numerous threads on this forum that have addressed the wide spread belief that poverty is largely a result of people having failed themselves somehow, "they deserve it" is the popular notion. Of course the wealthy five per cent of American's are fully behind these notions just because they have a vested interest in maintaining an overall low wage construct that accounts for the majority of high profits in some of our largest corporations.

Even those near the bottom are now hating on the poor, it's been a weird thing to witness. Low wage people hate those who are getting assistance, they hate union workers because they make better money, and most of all they hate themselves because they aren't "getting theirs" as they think an American should. In America you can always find someone lower on the ladder to kick.



How ridiculous to say that Americans hate "their poor." As far as being underinformed about life on welfare, it's often the taxpayers who don't know the extent of the scamming and certain others who apparently don't want to know, even when it's exposed.

Public assitance was meant to be just that--assistance, and temporary (thank you President Obama for putting an end to work requirements and time limits on benefits in CA, for example, with one stroke of the pen). No one begrudges helping those in need, but look at the explosion of people on food stamps recently. And, to avoid the "stigma," they don't even have to take the first step by going to the Social Services Dept. There's a force of enablers...er, facilitators....who approach people and encourage them to apply. And long gone is the "stigma" (and accountability) that came with stamps which have been replaced by the EBT card, with which people can buy all kinds of crap and expensive prepared food with the swipe of a card that, to most people, looks like any other debit card.

Are they getting rich? No, and no one said they were. The poor in America, however, live better than the richest in third-world countries. And many, especially here in NY with housing grants, heating/AC assistance, daycare subsidies, cash grants, food stamp cards (on which they can curiously accrue and carry over funds from month to month), Medicaid, medical transportation, farm produce coupons, WIC (which long ago ceased being just for cheese and milk)...are attaining a middle-class lifestyle with ease. All thanks to the largesse of the taxpayer. The taxpayer that gets bad-mouthed and kicked in the rear at every opportunity.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Sunrise
10,869 posts, read 13,638,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
How ridiculous to say that Americans hate "their poor." As far as being underinformed about life on welfare, it's often the taxpayers who don't know the extent of the scamming and certain others who apparently don't want to know, even when it's exposed.
We're in agreement about this, at least.

Biggest single group of food stamps recipients in the US? Wal-Mart employees. The way out of poverty is education, right? Not with the cost of a college education today, which is orders of magnitude more than it was when I went to school. Furthermore, back when I went to school, there weren't for-profit "colleges" fleecing young people to the tune of six-figure debt.

Of COURSE more people are on public assistance than ever before, we have been funneling America's resources to the top of the economic ladder. That is a ridiculous notion. If we really want a strong, sustainable economy, we need only implement the fiscal policies from the Eisenhower administration -- you know, that "golden time" that all the Baby Boomers wax nostalgic over.

Of course, I doubt the Tea-Party could stomach the idea of their wealthy idols having to pay upwards of 90% in income taxes.
 
Old 08-16-2013, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto
1,551 posts, read 2,685,430 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
How ridiculous to say that Americans hate "their poor." As far as being underinformed about life on welfare, it's often the taxpayers who don't know the extent of the scamming and certain others who apparently don't want to know, even when it's exposed.

Public assitance was meant to be just that--assistance, and temporary (thank you President Obama for putting an end to work requirements and time limits on benefits in CA, for example, with one stroke of the pen). No one begrudges helping those in need, but look at the explosion of people on food stamps recently. And, to avoid the "stigma," they don't even have to take the first step by going to the Social Services Dept. There's a force of enablers...er, facilitators....who approach people and encourage them to apply. And long gone is the "stigma" (and accountability) that came with stamps which have been replaced by the EBT card, with which people can buy all kinds of crap and expensive prepared food with the swipe of a card that, to most people, looks like any other debit card.

Are they getting rich? No, and no one said they were. The poor in America, however, live better than the richest in third-world countries. And many, especially here in NY with housing grants, heating/AC assistance, daycare subsidies, cash grants, food stamp cards (on which they can curiously accrue and carry over funds from month to month), Medicaid, medical transportation, farm produce coupons, WIC (which long ago ceased being just for cheese and milk)...are attaining a middle-class lifestyle with ease. All thanks to the largesse of the taxpayer. The taxpayer that gets bad-mouthed and kicked in the rear at every opportunity.
I think this post is a perfect example of how someone can talk out both sides of their mouth, saying that it's ridiculous to think Americans hate their poor while simultaneously writing a screed against all the ways the poor milk hard-working Americans of their tax dollars. To the poster, you managed to hit every single talking point that the people who resent the poor truck out every time they rant and rave about their tax dollars going to enrich welfare queens and lazy bums.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 09:00 AM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,699,632 times
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Define poor -- most people in the USA have heat in the winter, air conditioning in the summer, they have more than enough food and buy new clothes --- even the so-called poor.

What many people despise are those people who have become too lazy to ever work for what they want.

Also there might be "working poor" who live within their means and work hard for everything they have. They should not be lumped in with the other poor that include welfare recipients and those who work few hours but have baby after baby and exist mostly off government handouts, and the homeless with alcohol and drug issues.

There are noble poor and there are the lazy bums.
 
Old 08-18-2013, 05:00 PM
 
Location: USA
7,456 posts, read 5,444,530 times
Reputation: 12249
Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Yes, they do. It's been no secret that most of America knows nothing about poverty causes, some think it's a condition that is the result of laziness, most think it's about fraud because they've been misinformed about the myth of the "great life" on welfare. Poverty and it's causes have been studied to no end in America, we probably have more data collected on all possible causes than most nations around the globe, and we still don't get it as a nation.

There have been numerous threads on this forum that have addressed the wide spread belief that poverty is largely a result of people having failed themselves somehow, "they deserve it" is the popular notion. Of course the wealthy five per cent of American's are fully behind these notions just because they have a vested interest in maintaining an overall low wage construct that accounts for the majority of high profits in some of our largest corporations.

Even those near the bottom are now hating on the poor, it's been a weird thing to witness. Low wage people hate those who are getting assistance, they hate union workers because they make better money, and most of all they hate themselves because they aren't "getting theirs" as they think an American should. In America you can always find someone lower on the ladder to kick.
Precisely. It is an example of the "Just World Fallacy," which claims that everyone gets what they deserve in life. This loony notion pervades American culture and is probably some holdover from Puritan beliefs or something similar; either way, it leads to the notion that the unemployed "deserve" poverty, the poor are all "welfare bums," and charity and empathy are the greatest sins. Finding somebody lower down the ladder to hate, especially if they are of a different skin color, religion, or some other belief, is a time-honored American tradition. This is why as nation nothing has been done to resolve our systemic unemployment problems or economic issues - provided the only people being hurt are the lower working class and the poor, who cares? Which makes no sense at all since the rich are rarely ever harmed by terrible economic policies, runaway unemployment, etc.
 
Old 08-19-2013, 06:18 PM
 
3,700 posts, read 3,026,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Define poor -- most people in the USA have heat in the winter, air conditioning in the summer, they have more than enough food and buy new clothes --- even the so-called poor.

What many people despise are those people who have become too lazy to ever work for what they want.

Also there might be "working poor" who live within their means and work hard for everything they have. They should not be lumped in with the other poor that include welfare recipients and those who work few hours but have baby after baby and exist mostly off government handouts, and the homeless with alcohol and drug issues.

There are noble poor and there are the lazy bums.
Get real, if you'd do the reading required to proffer an educated opinion you'd know that a ton of poor people have been on that merry go round of welfare to work and back to welfare, on food stamps and then off the stamps, on charity rolls and then off. It isn't a static group in this country that is poverty stricken, the social dynamic of American poverty has been the subject of many university level studies and deserves at the least, a scholarly view that can be had from a little reading. This thread wasn't about bums. If you need help defining "poor" you need to read. Being poor IS proof in most peoples minds, that those so afflicted aren't living up to the societal expectations. Being poor IS seen as a personal failure in America.

Attacking the poor, whatever their level of deprivation, as lazy no goods, is simply showing a disdain, and that's the aggregate question being posed here. Many of our countrymen have been standing on the sidelines looking down their noses at those who have failed to get a start in the competition of American financial expectations, down and out for whatever reason, drug addicted or uneducated, they get thrown under the bus for their perceived transgressions against society. Failing to read is a laziness in itself................
 
Old 08-19-2013, 08:24 PM
 
6,819 posts, read 4,410,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jertheber View Post
Many of our countrymen have been standing on the sidelines looking down their noses at those who have failed to get a start in the competition of American financial expectations, down and out for whatever reason, drug addicted or uneducated, they get thrown under the bus for their perceived transgressions against society.
Largely I agree with your statement, but again I'd like to reiterate the fallacy of the assertion that poverty is necessarily caused by some combination of substance-addition (drugs, alcohol, etc.), unplanned/unwanted/out-of-wedlock childbirth, or failure to obtain an education. There are plenty of educated, childless non-addicted people in America who are poor, and they are perhaps the targets of the most vitriolic disdain because they don't display any of the standard "faults" of poverty.
 
Old 08-20-2013, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Toronto
1,551 posts, read 2,685,430 times
Reputation: 1558
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
Largely I agree with your statement, but again I'd like to reiterate the fallacy of the assertion that poverty is necessarily caused by some combination of substance-addition (drugs, alcohol, etc.), unplanned/unwanted/out-of-wedlock childbirth, or failure to obtain an education. There are plenty of educated, childless non-addicted people in America who are poor, and they are perhaps the targets of the most vitriolic disdain because they don't display any of the standard "faults" of poverty.
Yes, but I think it's important to note that even those who do make a mistake in their lives do not deserve to be poor for the rest of their days because of it. Nowadays in America, you get pretty much one chance to make a good life for yourself. Screw that up with any bad decisions and you may find yourself poor for life. Look at all the job ads that won't even interview people who have been unemployed for six months or more. You're telling me that's fair? That that's going to help people get off welfare, food stamps unemployment?
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