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Old 11-12-2013, 08:23 PM
 
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Up to this point capitalism has been a wonderful success in creating wealth so the less fortunate can share. IN other words social programs benefit from capitalism.

Capitalism that creates wealth has been incredibly beneficial to all.

Crony Capitalism where no wealth is created is usually harmful and promotes a greater gap between rich and poor.

Pure capitalism cannot exist because it leads to rebellion, revolution, and chaos. So capitalists are forced to have socialism to prevent revolution. The more affluent societies tend to have great social programs and the poor do well. It can be said that highly successful capitalism causes socialism.

If we further extend the concept of successful capitalism to greater heights we run into folks like Bill Gates who is a philanthropists. For these folks wealth is redundant because they have too much wealth on their hands.

Capitalism is therefore destined to burn out on his own as the successes of capitalism will create more and more socialism.

Where is the end point of this cycle?

The end point is when wealth becomes redundant.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Here.
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Capitalism is a basic human behavior. It's been around since the beginning of time. Socialism only came about when leaders realized they could gain more power by imposing it on the populace.

It is true though what you say about wealthy capitalist dissolving of their wealth. The wealthiest people of today are not the Rockefellers and Carnegies, and the wealthiest 100 years from now will not be the Gates and Buffets. Many poor people will work their way up and many rich will work their way down. That is one of the characteristics of capitalism.
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Old 11-13-2013, 01:21 PM
 
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The economies in places in the majority of the world is - capitalism, that is - market economies. Has been since the time of the middle ages when feudalism collapsed. If anything that has become even more so in the late 20th century as the last of the state-run economies had collapsed or adapted to take in such elements of capitalism as to reclassify them to at least a "mixed" status (i.e. China).
I would say the only economies that are not capitalism around today or only two - Cuba and North Korea. Maybe Laos.

Now of course there are different degrees on the capitalism scale as you note. No place exists pure unregulated capitalism, particularly the U.S. I think some countries are still struggling to find that right balance. Europe is finding it swung to far to "social welfare" state status and will swinging back, based on their current dismal financial situation, to less regulation and a more open market. The U.S. swings back and forth depending on what party has power but all in all has remained stable. Countries like Brazil, burdened by complex government regulations which makes doing business there almost impractical, may also swing back to less regulation in order to compete in the global market.
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Old 11-13-2013, 01:39 PM
 
Location: NJ
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Capitalism works best and mimics evolutionary competition which builds a stable society who then benefits from the diverse and constantly evolving social and technical contibution of all its subscribers.

When you broadcast handouts you essentially cause a contributing segment of the population to go dormant and no longer contribute to the good of all.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:03 PM
 
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Any amount of reading on the subject of economics usually reveals the fact that no econ-theory is actually practiced. The term, "mixed economy" usually suffices to define the norm in most industro-economies. As for the notion that capitalism goes back a long ways one only need to consider the fact that tribal socialism was the norm for most of early day mans time on earth, and those constructs lasted for thousands of years before any formal theories arose.

My guess is that John Galbraith was correct in his assumption that capitalism really served those who benefitted the most and conversely those who generated the labor (capitalisms other component) got the least. This is just a macro look at the realities of theory, in real life, most would agree that capitalism has to be restrained by laws so that the spread of benefit be at the high end rather than the other way around. Any economic system that rewards at a high level while ignoring the fact of it's inability to provide at the lowest level probably won't last too long. This was the trouble with most of those long gone empires, they had terribly lopsided economies.

Now that we all agree that we actually DON'T have a true capitalistic system I'd guess the next question is what kind of mixed economy DO we have? When we look around our country we see the path to governments door is well worn by business lobbyists, these "bag men" from our largest corporations go into the offices of elected officials and basically buy the type of restraint they think they can live with, even though WE the people were originally supposed to have that role of providing the necessary restraint on capital the truth is, sadly, we don't. So, should we call our type of economy a corporate-ocracy? Or how about calling it simply, not your government That's the story that we don't see in the news but tons of people see this as the one glaring truth of America.

Truth is, we don't know what to do regarding our current economic system, we know it doesn't always work in our favor, witness the business of Big Pharma, looking for more rare diseases to "cure" with their thousand dollar a shot wonder drugs, or how about the housing industry lobbying for new laws allowing them to build Rabbit warrens of 600 sq. feet and calling that "affordable housing" at prices starting in the 150,000 range, food growers looking for laws to allow them the "privilege" of telling us what we should be eating without our even knowing how these crops have changed to suit the profit angle but not the consumer. I could go on of course but you get the idea, we don't have capitalism so, it's anybodies guess how long the current system will be around. I'm far more interested in seeing a change, forcing more law upon the greedy, and less on those who are already doing the right thing.........
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:32 PM
 
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We are new relative to the rest of the world. Our 240+ year old system reached unsustainability two decades ago, exacerbated by immigration issues and feral cat style breeding by the section of the population who is least equipped to do so. Capitalism is a fail at this point. A system that depends on mass consumption, mostly of stuff people dont need, but making it a severe hardship for a large part of the population to partake of that consumption at the level it needs to survive, is doomed to failure over time. Its time to admit the experiment of capitalism--profit-uber-alles--is a failure and move on to a system that confronts the reality of what our society is today.
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:25 PM
 
9,828 posts, read 6,735,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Capitalism is a basic human behavior. It's been around since the beginning of time. Socialism only came about when leaders realized they could gain more power by imposing it on the populace.

It is true though what you say about wealthy capitalist dissolving of their wealth. The wealthiest people of today are not the Rockefellers and Carnegies, and the wealthiest 100 years from now will not be the Gates and Buffets. Many poor people will work their way up and many rich will work their way down. That is one of the characteristics of capitalism.
I agree, it is survival of the fittest. No different than animals in the jungle. The ones that survive are the ones that are better equipped.


The question is:

When does it end? Is constant competition to stay ahead the way to go forever? Is there anything better in the future?
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:32 PM
 
9,828 posts, read 6,735,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
The economies in places in the majority of the world is - capitalism, that is - market economies. Has been since the time of the middle ages when feudalism collapsed. If anything that has become even more so in the late 20th century as the last of the state-run economies had collapsed or adapted to take in such elements of capitalism as to reclassify them to at least a "mixed" status (i.e. China).
I would say the only economies that are not capitalism around today or only two - Cuba and North Korea. Maybe Laos.

Now of course there are different degrees on the capitalism scale as you note. No place exists pure unregulated capitalism, particularly the U.S. I think some countries are still struggling to find that right balance. Europe is finding it swung to far to "social welfare" state status and will swinging back, based on their current dismal financial situation, to less regulation and a more open market. The U.S. swings back and forth depending on what party has power but all in all has remained stable. Countries like Brazil, burdened by complex government regulations which makes doing business there almost impractical, may also swing back to less regulation in order to compete in the global market.
Yes, I agree, we are still struggling to find a balance.

One thing is certain. As of today the only engine that creates wealth is capitalism. Humans still need to be motivated and rewarded to work hard. If there is no prise humans don't work that hard. It simply means we have a long ways to go.

As long as man needs to be rewarded to work hard capitalism will be the only way. And the excess wealth will be used for socialism to avoid a revolution.

But, what if humans decided one day to work hard regardless of a reward?


What if one day we had everything we need and there was no need to accumulate additional wealth?

Redundant wealth?
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:35 PM
 
9,828 posts, read 6,735,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kracer View Post
Capitalism works best and mimics evolutionary competition which builds a stable society who then benefits from the diverse and constantly evolving social and technical contibution of all its subscribers.

When you broadcast handouts you essentially cause a contributing segment of the population to go dormant and no longer contribute to the good of all.
I agree. Some segments of society are inherently lazy and non productive whereas others are only productive if the receive a reward. We are flawed and selfish.

One could say the lazy man is selfish and one could say that working for a reward is also selfish.


How about working hard and expecting nothing in return?
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:38 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,103,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
Capitalism is a basic human behavior. It's been around since the beginning of time. Socialism only came about when leaders realized they could gain more power by imposing it on the populace.
That my friend is nonsense, there is nothing about capitalism that is inherent to human behavior nor is it the by any stretch of the imagination an economic system dating back any further than the perhaps the 2nd century BCE, hardly the beginning of human history much less the history of time. What we recognize as capitalism today may not have emerged until the late Middle Ages or the Italian Renaissance. If capitalism is natural, then it is only in the sense as a logical development that like all human endeavors, our evolutionary history.

As for socialism? Early humans survived as hunters and gathers who collectively provide for one another. This is the economic model around which the most primitive societies have organized themselves. So if we define socialism in its most basic form, it is clearly the oldest known economic system. And contrary to your statement, socialism, utopian and scientific could never be described as a movement that was imposed but rather an economic movement that arose in the 19th century as a result of the disenchantment with the inherent inefficiencies of nascent industrialization.

I am not writing this to disparage or promote socialism but rather to correct your misconception. In the course of human history economic systems have come and gone and it seems more than a bit naive and more importantly myopic that anyone alive today would insist that we have seen the end of human social evolution. Some day, capitalism may indeed run its course and be replaced by another.
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