Capitalism better than socialism (solutions, economy, vs, elect)

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by modhatter

I think you need to get your head out of your economic 101 book and learn more about how the health care industry actually works. With family in the business and from personal experience I can tell you how our health care system works. It's called PRODUCTIVITY. Yes, this is how you are trained and graded on how well you perform your job. You are actually chastised for doing something that might actually eliminate a further problem for a patient, because you will effect PRODUCTIVITY. A word you hear day in and day out. Your job becomes more about creating problems or maintaining problems for the sake of productivity. Patient care is secondary, and is the vehicle for increasing profit.

What goes on in a hospital is all about doing everything possible to increase productivity.
Pain pills are "pushed" on patients, records falsified to justify some other non essential treatment for the patient. Meetings are held regularly to discuss patients and how we may consider increasing PRODUCTIVITY of patients in order to run the tab up. (the dialog never put in those words of course) Doctors who perform the most procedures in their hospitals are held in the highest regard. Whether or not that procedure was warranted is of no concern to the hospital. It's all about how much can be pushed on patients in order to increase billing.

This is the reality of how health care works. When you are in it, you will see how destructive and harmful your Economics 101 book is. Like I previously said Health Care is the one area where capitalism work against good outcome.

You're wrong essentially because math works everywhere. Even in the HC industry. And all you're doing here, is discussing the symptoms manifested by the core problem itself.

It's not unusual. Lots of businesses drive themselves out of business every year because they don't understand economics. This is why bankruptcy happens - being an expert in your business doesn't guarantee you know how to RUN a business.

You assert that you know all about how the industry works. That's amazing. You may be the only person on the planet who has that much knowledge in an industry encompassing literally thousands of occupations, skills and technologies. Embracing government policy, scientific research, manufacturing, logistics, supply as well as administration and on down to actual medicine and HC delivery. And to think you've summed it all up in one paragraph is more amazing still. You understand how it works. So, nobody else in the industry agrees with you, and so it's messed up?

The HC system is failing because it IS NOT operating according to good economics. How can you say it's all about profit, when the HC sector is writing off 1/3 of it's billings as bad debt every year? When price controls are set BY THE GOVERNMENT. And when insurance plans are being priced so astronomically high that noone can afford them?

It's not about PROFIT for the HC industry. It's about trying to pour enough water into a glass with no bottom in it to keep it full.

[urbanologist]

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

Indeed, capitalism is merely the human "euphemism" for the biological processes of life sustainment. All living things on earth must exchange "work" for "energy" in an endless cycle to sustain life. But only humans have the capacity to mentally abstract ideals contrary to natural law - such as the erroneous idea that "wealth" can be created or sustained without the work/energy exchange. Nail the hive door shut and expect the bees to make honey anyway, in other words.

It may take thousands of years to change, indeed. It will take as long as necessary, until we figure out how to create matter out of nothing using absolutely no energy at all.

Absolutely, when you have more takers of the wealth than producers you get a Detroit. Detroit's current smaller tax base population can no longer support a city's infrastructure that once had 1.8 million. When the bee hive don't have enough producing bees and is abandoned there's less honey to go around. Then the bee hive becomes useless. Nailed shut due to over regulation and taxation.

[modhatter]

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

The HC system is failing because it IS NOT operating according to good economics. How can you say it's all about profit, when the HC sector is writing off 1/3 of it's billings as bad debt every year? When price controls are set BY THE GOVERNMENT. And when insurance plans are being priced so astronomically high that noone can afford them?

It's not about PROFIT for the HC industry. It's about trying to pour enough water into a glass with no bottom in it to keep it full.

Yes, some are writing off the uninsured at Full Cost, but simultaneously double billing most everyone else with insurance. In addition you also realize the government provides funds to County Hospitals as well for the uninsured. What do you mean, it's not about Profit for the HC industry. How can you even suggest that with a straight face. We are the only industrial nation that provides HC for profit. Why in heavens sake do you suppose we have the highest health care costs in the world. (and please don't tell me we have the best health care in the world) We don't have any cost controls other than what the insurance companies dictate. (so they get a sizable piece of the pie)

You were right about one statement about the government working against us on not allowing cost controls with the pharma companies. That free market in pharmaceuticals has worked out well for us hasn't it. As well as the free market cost of medical devices, in which we pay sometimes 10 times as much as other countries do for the same devises. (many which are manufactured in the US)

And speaking of the bottomless glass and the unsustainable $8,000 cost per person for medical care. How do you suppose we got there? There is no real competition in health care. Hell, we don't even know what anything costs because costs are hidden from us. What kind of capitalism is that? Is that how you go out and buy your new flat screen tv? WE HAVE 0 contoll of costs. The luckiest of us get to chose the doctor we use. The rest is totally out of our hands. We as the consumer of the goods have no negotiating powers. All prices are fixed within the industry and they control the cost. We just get to pay the tab.

Health Care in the US is a runaway train, with all the medical manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, lobbyists, ceo's , insurance companies and hospital administrators taking most of the pie, and yes you are right squeezing everyone else lower down the totem pole, so they get most of the pie. Most doctors are not hurting by the way. It is only GP's who are sometimes under served.

You say the following:
"The HC system is failing because it IS NOT operating according to good economics"

I would be very interested in hearing how you would change the current HC delivery system to operate according to good economics, and lower the cost.

You talk about Capitalism, the free market and competition to keep prices in check. If it is the answer to keeping prices in check, then why was the Public Option so vehemently opposed and defeated. At least 1/2 of the population knew it would help promote competition and price control. But the very people who purport to be all about cost control, the free market and capitalism, are the very ones who opposed it.

[Led Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by modhatter

What do you mean, it's not about Profit for the HC industry. How can you even suggest that with a straight face.

What I'm saying is that the problem is not profits. The problem is escalating costs. Of course some components of the industry are making large profits. Small wonder they successfully lobby the government to structure the system to their liking, so they can make money selling bureaucracy. ACA is only a continuation of that, and it ASTOUNDS me that people like you literally demand that the very system you hate is perpetuated. I mean, do you really, really think about that fact at all? Do you not notice who the companies on the exchanges are?

Originally Posted by modhatter

We are the only industrial nation that provides HC for profit. Why in heavens sake do you suppose we have the highest health care costs in the world. (and please don't tell me we have the best health care in the world) We don't have any cost controls other than what the insurance companies dictate. (so they get a sizable piece of the pie)

You keep asking me why I think we have the highest costs in the world. Haven't I made that clear yet what I think? Cost controls? You want MORE cost controls? Why? Aren't the insurance company cost controls enough for you? Yes... no.... maybe? You want more cost controls, and you dislike cost controls. And you think cost controls are "bad capitalism"?

Originally Posted by modhatter

You were right about one statement about the government working against us on not allowing cost controls with the pharma companies. That free market in pharmaceuticals has worked out well for us hasn't it. As well as the free market cost of medical devices, in which we pay sometimes 10 times as much as other countries do for the same devises. (many which are manufactured in the US)

You really aren't reading my posts. Why do you want to have a discussion with me? I never said this. I have however been saying the EXACT OPPOSITE... over and over and over and over. I think price controls DISTORT the system. They screw things up. Always. It's axiomatic. The government tells you that you have to sell your lemonade for only a dime, but you can't make any money that way. It isn't worth it. So what do you do? You find every possible loophole in the law to get around that restriction. You water down the lemonade and sell them water. You use lemon substitute. You fire workers. You stop standing on the corner and just tell the customers to ring the doorbell. You stop using vendors for supplies and just do everything yourself.

Ultimately you just quit selling lemonade and leave the demand unfulfilled. Ultimately, everyone just decides to buy lemonade from China.

It's not hard to figure out why price controls don't work.

Originally Posted by modhatter

And speaking of the bottomless glass and the unsustainable $8,000 cost per person for medical care. How do you suppose we got there? There is no real competition in health care.

No kidding? No competition! You really are NOT reading my posts. But you want to have a discussion.

Originally Posted by modhatter

Hell, we don't even know what anything costs because costs are hidden from us. What kind of capitalism is that?

Why do you suppose you have no control over costs? I think you need to pick up an Economics 101 book and read it. You think hidden costs are capitalism in a free market society?

Originally Posted by modhatter

Is that how you go out and buy your new flat screen tv? WE HAVE 0 contoll of costs. The luckiest of us get to chose the doctor we use.

Yet, you ask me how I'd like to go out and buy a television set that way. I wouldn't. I'm not the one advocating that sort of system. You are. That's what's funny. You keep flip flopping back and forth between two arguments, almost as if you're two different people. You're living in the HC system that you advocate. Don't you get it? You're living in a government controlled HC system that is, for all intents and purposes, just about what Europe has.

Originally Posted by modhatter

The rest is totally out of our hands. We as the consumer of the goods have no negotiating powers. All prices are fixed within the industry and they control the cost. We just get to pay the tab.

And you think this is capitalism?

Originally Posted by modhatter

Health Care in the US is a runaway train, with all the medical manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, lobbyists, ceo's , insurance companies and hospital administrators taking most of the pie, and yes you are right squeezing everyone else lower down the totem pole, so they get most of the pie. Most doctors are not hurting by the way. It is only GP's who are sometimes under served.

And giving up one/third of total revenues to bad debt. You should thank them for generously giving up so much lost profit for so many years when they could be garnishing wages at will, like the IRS plans to do in the future under the ACA provisions. Of course, you don't thank the insurers because they're getting their profits. The segment not getting their profits are the care providers who never get paid the portion that the insurance doesn't cover, about 1/3 the time.

Originally Posted by modhatter

You say the following: "The HC system is failing because it IS NOT operating according to good economics" I would be very interested in hearing how you would change the current HC delivery system to operate according to good economics, and lower the cost.

I'd be glad to tell you my ideas. I just don't know if you'll bother to read it.

Originally Posted by modhatter

You talk about Capitalism, the free market and competition to keep prices in check. If it is the answer to keeping prices in check, then why was the Public Option so vehemently opposed and defeated. At least 1/2 of the population knew it would help promote competition and price control. But the very people who purport to be all about cost control, the free market and capitalism, are the very ones who opposed it.

You're very confused. Very confused.

[modhatter]

I can't stay on this merry go round discussion. I talk about one thing and you bring up something else and ignore my questions. Almost everything associated with health care is over priced and too expensive, and frankly part of the problem is government protecting the industry (in certain aspects).

It is a complex problem, because it has been structured as a business. A business where by the more you sell, the more you make. Since we have a real problem here with spiraling health care costs, most all other countries have come to the conclusion that running health care for profit only creates waste and excess costs and unnecessary procedures. I am simply stating that a person's health care should not be handled for profit. Just like going to a lawyer or a wedding planner or an accounting firm. It they can run up the costs or billable hours, they will.

I have tried to point out the environment in the hospitals and how it works against patients. The new laws passed have tried to put incentives into hospitals to treat the patients right the first time to prevent the revolving door that exists and reward good work- not quantitative work. Our "reward" system in health care is not conducive to fixing the problem as quickly and cost effectively as possible.

Capitalism works for most things as long as there is ample competition. In health care we have neither competition nor enough cost control and only money incentives. We have cost control from the insurance companies in so far as what they will pay, or the government in what they will pay (which is too little in some cases) but we have no cost controls that control why health care is so expensive to begin with.

[fairlaker]

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

I think you need to go back and read the extent of what I've written here. Otherwise, I can't see how you'd ever get the idea that I assert ANYTHING BUT the idea that capitalism is practiced in many "flavors" as you put it.

No, rereading isn't going to improve any of it. It's all the work of a rambling and often confused neophyte. Capitalism loves capital. All it really wants to do is accrue more profit so as to finance investment in more capital. That's it. If you want anything else out of an economic system, you'll have to weld it on or blend it in from some other system. The focus of capitalism is very narrow indeed. Capitalism does not care about workers, it does not care about consumers, it does not care about the environment. It cares about wealth and profit as the means and path to increased capital formation. That's it.

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

"Social wealth" is an abstract consideration of the political/social policy system.

No, it's the measureable wealth and strength within an economy. Things like GDP and trade and industrial capacity. And the pace of growth in these things can be enhanced and maximized simply by improving profits and hence accelerating capital formation. Capitalism does not posit a point of diminishing marginal returns to capital. More of it is always good, while sacrfiicing it for more of anything else is always bad.

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

Whatever theory you ascribe to is fine with me. Governments do with revenues what they will, more or less. And who is "they" in this assertion of focus on profit and wealth building? Better yet, who WOULDN'T "they" be? In other words, which honeybee in the hive would be doing something other than what bees do as a natural process of sustainment?

The honeybees again? Forget them. They have no relevance. Despite all the buzzing, capitalism remains a system that seeks profit for the formation of more capital, and through that, the creation of more wealth and more profit and more capital. All else is subservient to this great cycle of capital formation.

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

You sound defensive about some ideological position.

It's just economics. You should try it sometime.

[fairlaker]

Originally Posted by Julian658

I have always accepted that wealth creation is key. And some humans are very good at creating wealth------------they are so good that they give the wealth away.

Yes, they give in to their inner socialism. This is very common among the wealthy -- a desire to give something back to the society that made their success possible to begin with.

Originally Posted by Julian658

I have no issues with wealth creators making lot of money because in the end everybody benefits.

Fat-cat corporate Houdinis want people to believe that they are worthy of much as great Wizards and Magicians who can cause great things to happen. It's all nonsense. These people do not create wealth, and they do not create jobs. These are things that their organizations do, and any number of other people could do as well or better at running those. In other countries, people are in fact doing as well or better, and doing it for 10% of the salary and benefits that get paid here. How is this not a giant rip-off?

Originally Posted by Julian658

I rather see an athlete get 25 million dollars a year than the CEOs of these companies making the same amount of money. The work they do can be done by someone else for much less. At least the star athletes have a skill that no one else can do with the same efficiency.

The manager of a baseball team gets no key hits and makes no game-saving catches. There are no days on which he holds the opposition to a run on three hits and a walk over seven innings. The manager merely runs things and many others could do that job as well. A baseball manager makes much less money than his players. This is a much more sensible system than what we see in out-of-control Corporate America.

[fairlaker]

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

You're wrong essentially because math works everywhere.

Actually, he was wrong because there is no actual basis or foundation for the claims that were made. There is certainly a growing push to improve productivity among health care providers. This was created by the increased focus and carrot-and-stick provisions introduced by PPACA, and the whole notion is of course a wonderful idea. Improving productivity means better ouitcomes at reduced unit costs. Basic math approves of that.

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

How can you say it's all about profit, when the HC sector is writing off 1/3 of it's billings as bad debt every year?

Hint: "Billings" by health care providers are apt to be nonsense numbers that they have no expectation of actually receiving. Unless of course, you are under- or uninsured. If you have insurance, the provider will receive what the insurance company deems customary and usual, and the rest of the "bill" will simply disappear.

[fairlaker]

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

What I'm saying is that the problem is not profits. The problem is escalating costs. Of course some components of the industry are making large profits. Small wonder they successfully lobby the government to structure the system to their liking, so they can make money selling bureaucracy. ACA is only a continuation of that, and it ASTOUNDS me that people like you literally demand that the very system you hate is perpetuated. I mean, do you really, really think about that fact at all? Do you not notice who the companies on the exchanges are?

You're making all this much harder than it needs to be. That's called obfuscation in many quarters, and it is a means of covering up for weak arguments. Let's summarize. The for-profit, fee-for-service model is a disaster. It only involves about half our total health care, and yet it causes us to have the most expensive health care in the developed world and some of the worst overall results. We can see if the relatively few good points in the current system can be retained, but the system itself has to be completely revamped and replaced, starting now.

Meanwhile, if you are in Baltimore and need to go to Chicago, you have to start from Baltimore. You can't decide to start from Albuquerque instead. There are millions who are in the system, depending everyday on the health care system just as it is. There is no way to suddenly ship all these people off to Chicago without seeing a lot of them dying en route. That's an unacceptable outcome. Whatever plan for reinventing health care, it has to provide seamless care. Which essentially means that change has to occur slowly and in small increments. In other words, the system that we hate has to be perpetuated at first. It ASTOUNDS me that there are people simply too dull to realize this on their own.

Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin

It's not hard to figure out why price controls don't work.

Are you familiar with the health care system in Japan? The government and the health care industry sit down and negotiate a set price for everything. Down to the tiniest service or product in the system. And that's what things then cost. The big problem that results from this is that people in Japan end up spending TOO LITTLE on health care. Why don't we try some of that for a while?

[California831]

Originally Posted by augiedogie

And interesting phenomena has happened at our local Walmart that shows that capitalism and the competition that goes with it is usually better for the consumer. Here's what happened. Our local Walmart last month started to make some changes. First, I noticed that some of their prices came down. Their main competition locally is a small regional chain, that has fairly high prices. So Walmart tended to be just under them or the same on many items. But in the last month or so, I've seen some prices come down. Then all of a sudden, their karts, which were typically in terrible shape, all got new wheels and worked fine, almost like new. Then, I went this morning, and they had clerks waiting to check you out. Usually, there were always a couple people in line, and sometimes, even their self check outs had lines. What happened. Costco came to town and is opening this week. Finally they had some competition, so they had to quick slacking off.

Competition makes companies work harder. This is why national health insurance is BAD. If the insurance business and doctors are in competition, they have to work harder for your business. But if there's no competition and the govt. runs the whole thing, just guess what kind of service you'll get. I think we already see that based on how well the ACA roll-out has begun.

Wal Mart will be destroyed in the next few years by a combination of Amazon, Costoco, and Target. Thank God. Wal Mart is the worst thing to happen to this country.