Is America racist or classist? (independent, myth, Hispanic, compared) - Great Debates - Page 3 - City-Data Forum

modhatter · 11-24-2013, 11:46 PM

I think there exists both racism and disdain for a segment of the population whose life style differs from what we feel is unilaterally acceptable behavior. Intellectuals are less likely to be racist. (though everyone is to some degree whether they know it or not) Illiterates are more likely to be outwardly racist.

I think the word "class conscious" could be a relevant word, but not in the old world sense that you speak of as with England or India. There is a tendency in this country for some people to lump together all poor people into one basket, and regard them as lazy, shiftless individuals who are draining our economy. So in that sense, I think there is a disdain for what some perceive as a worthless class. (whether they belong in this basket or not)

I have disdain for what I feel is bad behavior. When I hear someone talking trash and using the four letter word in front of their children out in public, I cringe, and think to myself. "What chance does that child have of growing up a respectful person with proper ideals" I have disdain for the Jerry Springer crowd. Is that the same as having a cast system. I think not. One is based on ethnicity or possibly birth right. The other is based purely on life style and behavior and has little to do with color, place of origin, religion or money.

I think it would be very difficult to generalize about the US because it would depend on who you were comparing us to. When compared to the East, we are much more homogenous. When compared to Europe we are downright racist, judgmental, and closed minded moralists.

NorthWetter · 11-24-2013, 11:56 PM

People who think that the great melting pot called America is racist should go spend some time in Europe and Asia, and then report back on how racist America is in comparison. In both places, they discriminate against people of the same race from other countries! There are racist people everywhere, and America isn't the worst by a long shot.

America is definitely classist based on wealth and education levels. However, the wealth doesn't have to be "old money" - especially on the West coast. What other country has better opportunities for social mobility than America? Why do you think that so many foreigners want to live here?

dsb62574 · 11-25-2013, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeymags

Sure there are benefits wealthy people receive that poor do not. That's the desire to have money correct?
But regardless of what 'class' or race you are born into, do well in school, work hard and stay grounded, and stay out of trouble, and there's very little you can't do.

I want to laugh, but I think you are serious. You would have to be dullard to not understand race and class are closely linked to poverty. Class and, in some instances, race can heavily impact education. Highly rated schools serve the most elite neighborhoods in a community. Parents of these children have more disposable income for tutors, cultural experiences, and technological aid devices. As a result, these schools are able to draw from a larger tax base hiring the best teachers and providing adequate supplies. When these kids are "ungrounded" and get in trouble, their parents are readily able to use their resources to get them assistance. Even with all this benefit, it is still no guarantee of success. Additionally, most of these kids will not face hunger, gang influence, predators, and daily drug pushing to derail their future. Our nation tends to separate on racial and class lines, and many stereotype that designation throughout their lives in the form of prejudice. Generally, poverty breeds poverty; middle class is a toss-up, and elite wealth is a guarantee--it is all birthright.

I am only a couple of generations removed from poverty, and some of my distant relatives are still struggling. My parents were lucky and secured high paying factory positions which no longer exist in America. I have an MBA, hold two professional state licenses, and make a salary that allows me to live very comfortably, but I had a lot of help getting here. I lived in a nice area, went to great schools, had good teachers, was able to eat well (allowing me to focus on class work--not hunger), and even went to counseling for some minor adolescent issues. I make more money than my parents did, but I still belong to the same middle class. If you give it thought, I am sure someone helped you too. Without some built in race or class advantage, life would be different.

The work hard mantra is a lie. In the race for wealth, the poor start 500 yards behind the middle, and the middle is several miles behind the elite. For all our struggles, we are still a nation of largely hereditary nobles.

Amy1190 · 11-25-2013, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeymags

Sure there are benefits wealthy people receive that poor do not. That's the desire to have money correct?
But regardless of what 'class' or race you are born into, do well in school, work hard and stay grounded, and stay out of trouble, and there's very little you can't do.

You are spouting nothing but a myth and a lie my friend. Statistics on social mobility prove that your statement is as false as it gets. People largely remain in the social classes they're born into in America.

Luck plays a much bigger part than hard work.

Serious Conversation · 11-25-2013, 05:30 AM

Classism is definitely still tinged by racial issues, but according to the question asked, I'd say we're definitely more classist. Still, I think the greatest divide in the country today is urban/rural.

I live in a fairly rural area in TN. I went to county schools that had a fairly diverse income base - many students were the children of blue collar people, factory workers, auto mechanics, and farmers, while other children had parents who were engineers, educators, attorneys, etc. My parents had a HHI of about $60-$70k during my school years, while my uncle has a HHI of $250k+ and his kids went to the same school I did, and had many of the same opportunities/limitations.

Contrast small town TN with Nashville. There aren't as many opportunities here as in Nashville - no matter your income level. Many sports weren't even available in our county schools. AP courses weren't offered as much in the county as in the city. A special needs or especially gifted child is less likely to find beneficial resources in a small town as in a bigger city.

As an adult, major employers with a strong resume presence are less likely to be in small towns. Promotions are likely fewer and farther between. Internship opportunites are decreased because of a lack of people and thus a lack of jobs. Saving for retirement often becomes more difficult in rural areas due to lower salaries and lack of jobs with good benefits. Surprisingly, crime in rural areas is often as high or higher than in urban areas - I can say with confidence that a good reason that crime in rural TN has gone up tremendously is a lack of ways to earn an honest living. In many small towns and rural areas, the sectors that once sustained the community (usually jobs that required lots of cheap labor, space, or natural resources) have taken it on the chin, with the jobs either heading overseas or to the cities.

I wouldn't feel comfortable raising children in a rural area today, no matter what my income level or my race is. There are just too many ways to be stunted as an adult or child in rural areas compared to urban ones and these differences are far more pronounced than class or race IMO.

Ralph_Kirk · 11-25-2013, 07:09 AM

The last three posts by dsb62574, non-creep, and Emigrations are really on the money.

So much depends on where you were when you started. What neighborhood, your family background, et cetera. A congruence of background, location, and luck has made a difference for those on the cusp.
It was only in the post WWII years that "upward mobility" was ever really true for the great mass of Americans, and it appears that might have been a historical anomaly.

Some things sound so easy: Even "Stay out of trouble" That sounds easier than it really is when one is born into a gang-controlled neighborhood.

Personally, I led what I look back on as a fairly blessed life. I was born into a military family and lived most of my life on military installations.

That meant:

1. Everyone in my neighborhoods was gainfully and fully employed, 100%...amazing what a difference that make sin a neighborhood.
2. There was enforced equal access to social facilities.
3. Anyone who couldn't follow the rules got kicked off base.
4. The elementary schools were on base and under the same kinds of rule enforcement.
5. Homes and yards were always well-maintained.

I have met too many men who are just as smart and hardworking as I am--or more--but were less blessed as children, and haven't done as well. I've met too many people who I have to admit, if I'd been handed the same hand as they ere, I'd have been screwed.

Serious Conversation · 11-25-2013, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

The last three posts by dsb62574, non-creep, and Emigrations are really on the money.

So much depends on where you were when you started. What neighborhood, your family background, et cetera. A congruence of background, location, and luck has made a difference for those on the cusp.
It was only in the post WWII years that "upward mobility" was ever really true for the great mass of Americans, and it appears that might have been a historical anomaly.

Some things sound so easy: Even "Stay out of trouble" That sounds easier than it really is when one is born into a gang-controlled neighborhood.

Personally, I led what I look back on as a fairly blessed life. I was born into a military family and lived most of my life on military installations.

That meant:

1. Everyone in my neighborhoods was gainfully and fully employed, 100%...amazing what a difference that make sin a neighborhood.
2. There was enforced equal access to social facilities.
3. Anyone who couldn't follow the rules got kicked off base.
4. The elementary schools were on base and under the same kinds of rule enforcement.
5. Homes and yards were always well-maintained.

I have met too many men who are just as smart and hardworking as I am--or more--but were less blessed as children, and haven't done as well. I've met too many people who I have to admit, if I'd been handed the same hand as they ere, I'd have been screwed.

I still believe in upward mobility and "bootstrapping," but you have to temper your expectations in light of today's economy. Decisions now have to be made 100% correctly - there is almost no room for error.

The uncle I mentioned got his first job at IBM through his wife, who was about ten years older than him and was actually his high school teacher. They ended up getting married and she helped get on at IBM. He worked at IBM about ten years, took this experience, then founded his own business. His income has grown steadily since then and $200k is about the minimum he's made on the worst year of the past five, with his income approaching $400k this year. Though not rich, he's doing well, and it's unlikely he would have done so well had he not slept with his teacher.

A friend of mine from high school lost his dad at 17 and worked odd jobs for a few years and taught himself software design. He used this to launch one business, his income and customer base grew, he founded a few more businesses, and sold one this year, only stating he made so much that he never has to work again. His main business is on track for nine figure revenue next year and he has about a hundred people working for him, many of whom are well into six figure incomes themselves, and he's only 25.

What's the difference between my uncle and the really wealthy guy? My uncle does the bare minimums - the really wealthy guy works at least 60 hour weeks, every week. The wealthy guy studies almost everything - accounting, hard sciences, software development, business, law, marketing. He never finished college, but is one of the most well-rounded people I know. The wealthy guy got wealthy through a lot of hard work, but there was also a good amount of luck involved. If he didn't have a passion for a field where there was so much money to be made, but worked just as hard, he wouldn't be as successful. If he didn't work as hard in software development, he wouldn't be nearly as successful.

The occasional Horatio Alger story doesn't discount the overall trend, and the trend is that it seems to be harder to improve oneself these days, no matter how much or little effort one puts into their careers. Society's standard of living overall seems to be declining and once reliable careers into the middle class are often closing down. Want to be an accountant? What used to be FTE positions are often now run through Accountemps. Want to be an engineer? Good luck getting a job without the purple squirrel combination of experience, education, and tools used. Want to be a medical doctor? Good luck with your hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Want to be an attorney? Same thing as the doctor, but few jobs. The only paths into the middle class that seem relatively stable are government work and nursing/other health fields that don't require an immense debt load to start.

fairlaker · 11-25-2013, 08:35 AM

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