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You mean like burning Giordano Bruno at the stake and virtually killing Galileo for suggesting the Sun is the center of the solar system and burning women for being "witches"? A huge number of people were killed by the "holy" church on various pretexts as a way of removing political threats. That's really enlightened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
No matter how you dance around it, religion is just another barbaric political system based on lies, fairy tales, delusions, superstitions invented by humans to control other humans. In fact Islam was unique in encouraging scientific inquiry. Sad how it's devolved into the barbarism we see today.
Religion is always being used as a scapegoat. It is always being blamed for starting conflicts, even when its doctrines call for peace. Atheists always pull out historical examples of religious suppression of science, ignoring the fact that some of them, like the events concerning Galileo, are completely false. All religions allow people to reflects about life, and explore the universe created by the deity.
So the words don't matter but the interpretation does? Whose interpretation should we accept?
Of course interpretation matters more. It reveals the true meaning of the text, and the underlying message that isn't obvious when just looking at the words.
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Originally Posted by vmaxnc
Looking past the fact that eyewitness testimony is the least reliable form of "proof", is there any modern testimony?
What, in the design of the universe, constitutes proof of a deity? Please keep in mind that lack of any other explanation does not constitute proof of anyone's supposition. As an example, the sun moving across the sky (a fallacy in itself) was once assumed to be the god Ra riding across the sky in his golden chariot. Once ignorance was set aside in favor of actual knowledge, the god explanation was no longer needed.
There are many examples of eye-witnesses of God during modern times, from people who have experienced his grace, to people who seen his kingdom in near-death experiences to the people of the Philippines following Typhoon Haiyan, who have clearly witnessed his grace. Testimony is still hard evidence just like facts and statistics.
Just look at how the universe is designed and fine-tuned for life. Just look at the patterns of the universe, and it is clear that it is designed by God to be suitable for life.
Of course interpretation matters more. It reveals the true meaning of the text, and the underlying message that isn't obvious when just looking at the words.
There are many examples of eye-witnesses of God during modern times, from people who have experienced his grace, to people who seen his kingdom in near-death experiences to the people of the Philippines following Typhoon Haiyan, who have clearly witnessed his grace. Testimony is still hard evidence just like facts and statistics.
Just look at how the universe is designed and fine-tuned for life. Just look at the patterns of the universe, and it is clear that it is designed by God to be suitable for life.
Whose interpretation? Yours? Your pastors'? A scholars? etc, etc.
Testimony is not hard evidence, at least when it comes to the supernatural. The human mind can easily be tricked into seeing things that are not there, or believing they see what they want to see. That is why anecdotes cannot be used as proof of the supernatural.
The universe is NOT designed or fine tuned for life. In fact, much of the universe is out to kill us. Not only can we not live in 99.99999999999999999% of the universe, the Earth is also not some garden of Eden safe from the dangers of the universe. We are constantly bombarded by space rock, and while the atmosphere protects us from the smaller pieces, it is inevitable that large asteroids will hit us. The sun blasts out radiation so powerful that it would blast away our atmosphere if not for the Earth's magnetic field, which will cease to exist as the earth's core continues cooling. The Earth's spin and tilt are constant because it is stabilized by our moon, that gives us our relatively stable climates, which allows for life to prosper. But the moon is gradually swinging away from us and will eventually leave us. The sun will get hotter when all it's hydrogen is used up, turning the Earth into a barren wasteland, and then it will swallow the earth as it expands. Our galaxy is on a collusion course with Andromeda, if our solar system survives the crash, chances are we'll be thrust to center of the new galaxy, where things are more chaotic and we'll be pulverized. I can go on and on but I think I made my point. If the Universe has a designer, he must be severely retarded, an architect would probably lose his license and go to jail if he designed a house meant to kill its inhabitants.
Last edited by Astorian31; 01-10-2014 at 10:12 PM..
Whose interpretation? Yours? Your pastors'? A scholars? etc, etc.
Testimony is not hard evidence, at least when it comes to the supernatural. The human mind can easily be tricked into seeing things that are not there, or believing they see what they want to see. That is why anecdotes cannot be used as proof of the supernatural.
The universe is NOT designed or fine tuned for life. In fact, much of the universe is out to kill us. Not only can we not live in 99.99999999999999999% of the universe, the Earth is also not some garden of Eden safe from the dangers of the universe. We are constantly bombarded by space rock, and while the atmosphere protects us from the smaller pieces, it is inevitable that large asteroids will hit us. The sun blasts out radiation so powerful that it would blast away our atmosphere if not for the Earth's magnetic field, which will cease to exist as the earth's core continue's cooling. The Earth's spin and tilt are constant because it is stabilized by our moon, that gives us our relatively stable climates, which allows for life to prosper. But the moon is gradually swinging away from us and will eventually leave us. The sun will get hotter when all it's hydrogen is used up, turning the Earth into a barren wasteland, and then it will swallow the earth as it expands. Our galaxy is on a collusion course with Andromeda, if our solar system survives the crash, chances are we'll be thrust to center of the new galaxy, where things are more chaotic and we'll be pulverized. I can go on and on but I think I made my point. If the Universe has a designer, he must be severely retarded, an architect would probably lose his license and go to jail if designed a house meant to kill its inhabitants.
This is quite true. And people commonly attribute "the order of the universe" to a Creator or Designer. But that doesn't make any sense. It is not as if there is an "alternative" to the order we observe. And, in fact, the universe is what it is without us. It is WE who decide that something has a pattern or exhibits an "order". It is simply a tool of cognition, part of our epistemological technique, to observe patterns or similarities or dissimilarities. To categorize. To relate. To integrate. To separate. There is no order or disorder to the universe, it is simply what it is. The "order" is provided by us, in order to understand and explain.
Last edited by Marc Paolella; 01-10-2014 at 10:34 PM..
Would the world be better off or worse without religion?
No. With the exception of one bogus "religion" which will remain nameless, religions give people a moral underpinning. The problem is not religion, it is hypocrisy within a religion's membership.
The key thing to understand that religion is not necessary for moral underpinnings. In fact, it is better if it comes from rationality, i.e. the real world. Why? Morality as a code of conduct arises simply from human agreement that in order for people to co-exist, they must observe certain social restraints. Like not killing each other arbitrarily. Or stealing from each other. Or being dishonest. Not because of a God or an imagined super-existential justice system, but simply because living according to our nature, i.e. rational animals, requires freedom from arbitrary compulsion and the use of physical force.
Morality should arises from our nature as rational living beings. And it can. And it should. We only need to decide to comply as rational social animals. Which is what we essentially do in Western civilization. Morality is an implied behavioral contract among men. And as such, it is defined by Man, and can be re-defined by Man. Which, as we see, it always is. But the design should arise from a rational analysis of what we are and how we function best in a social context, with the implicit understanding that for Man to be successful, he must first be free. And for all men to be successful, the fundamental unit of freedom must lie with the individual.
So the proper origin of a moral code should lie within the discipline of Philosophy. Not religion. It should be a secular design, of men, by men, and for men. Men living in reality, together, and on this planet.
Last edited by Marc Paolella; 01-10-2014 at 10:41 PM..
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