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Old 02-09-2014, 01:45 PM
 
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In America, the death penalty was declared unconstitutional between 1972 and 1975. However, it was reinstated during the year 1976.

After its reinstatement, there have been 1,366 executions.

Executions by Year | Death Penalty Information Center

During this same time period, there have been 137 death row exonerations (this excludes 6 exonerations in 1976 that took place in the months prior to the reinstatement of the death penalty).

Innocence: List of Those Freed From Death Row | Death Penalty Information Center


Is an execution to exoneration ratio of 10 to 1 reasonable?


Does this long established execution/exoneration ratio of 10 to 1 support that juries are reasonably competent enough to discern guilt in capital murder trials?


If juries are not competent enough to reasonably discern guilt in the most important of all trials, what would you expect to be their ability to discern guilt in criminal trials that deal with lesser charges?


What wrongful conviction rate would you expect actually exists in the criminal trials that are not capital murder trials?

Last edited by Wudge; 02-09-2014 at 01:59 PM..
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Old 02-09-2014, 02:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txoutdoors View Post
I find it amazing that conservative politicians and some democrats can simultaneously support tort reform yet be pro death penalty. If Congress deems it necessary to limit how much a corporation has to pay in damages, that is a statement that judges and juries cannot be trusted, otherwise there would be no need for tort reform. If someone feels that judges and juries cannot be trusted to decide what monetary damages are the correct punishment in a case, I don't see how they feel the same legal system can be trusted with who is worthy of execution and who is not.

Besides the issue of exoneration being so common, there is also the issue that the overwhelming majority of those sentenced to die are unable to afford the best lawyers. Those who can afford the best lawyers get less punishment. That is not a blind justice system.
Absolutely agree with everything written in this post. The one thing I would add is that tort reform has more to do with large corporations holding individual states hostage by threatening to pull up stakes and moving elsewhere if tort reform isn't implemented. Some states rely on these large corps a bit too much for employing their citizens and their corporate tax dollars. So rather than hold these large corps responsible for the things that they do the state politicians have to play both sides of the fence and inevitably find it easier to bend over backwards to the desires of the corporations.

To answer the question though, I don't feel that juries in general are especially equipped to reasonably discern innocence or guilt. Unless the case is a slam dunk one way or another I feel that many juries are put in a difficult spot of trying to decipher the info in front of them with the hopes of making the right decision. Couple that with the fact that some lawyers are just better than others and it's easy to see why the legal system can't be trusted with handing out blind and balanced justice. Just like most things in life, the more chips you come to the table with the more likely you are with experiencing a favorable outcome.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:12 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
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As dispicable as many on death row may be, it is not the state's duty to kill, nor should it be the sole discretion of a governor whether someone convicted should be granted a last-minute reprieve. There is no evidence the death penalty is a deterrant to crime (do any deterrants exist with psychopaths?), therefore it exists as simple retribution.
One wrongful execution should be enough to overturn the death penalty laws in our country, yet in the minds of much of the public, playing the percentages is acceptable.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
As dispicable as many on death row may be, it is not the state's duty to kill, nor should it be the sole discretion of a governor whether someone convicted should be granted a last-minute reprieve. There is no evidence the death penalty is a deterrant to crime (do any deterrants exist with psychopaths?), therefore it exists as simple retribution.
One wrongful execution should be enough to overturn the death penalty laws in our country, yet in the minds of much of the public, playing the percentages is acceptable.

Here are cases of two executions where exceptional evidence exists that strongly supports the likelihood that innocent people have been executed.

1) Cameron Todd Willingham

Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker

2) Carlos DeLuna
Yes, America, We Have Executed an Innocent Man - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wudge View Post
Here are cases of two executions where exceptional evidence exists that strongly supports the likelihood that innocent people have been executed.

1) Cameron Todd Willingham

Cameron Todd Willingham, Texas, and the death penalty : The New Yorker

2) Carlos DeLuna
Yes, America, We Have Executed an Innocent Man - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic
Willingham was guilty.

DeLuna was innocent of that crime; however, he practically executed himself. This felon piece of garbage was so intent on protecting his friend, who he knew viciously murdered an innocent woman, that he "sacrificed himself". This case was essentially the "worst case scenario" of wrongful execution in both the number of weird coincidences and the FACT that DeLuna could have saved himself by telling the truth. He CHOSE to protect his violent murderous friend at all costs, and that cost was the ultimate for him.

Personally, I'm ok with DeLuna being "wrongfully" executed. He practically committed suicide in order to save a murdering monster.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
As dispicable as many on death row may be, it is not the state's duty to kill, nor should it be the sole discretion of a governor whether someone convicted should be granted a last-minute reprieve. There is no evidence the death penalty is a deterrant to crime (do any deterrants exist with psychopaths?), therefore it exists as simple retribution.
One wrongful execution should be enough to overturn the death penalty laws in our country, yet in the minds of much of the public, playing the percentages is acceptable.
There's no evidence of the deterrent factor of the death penalty because it is so poorly implemented. We're averaging 14K+ murders a year, but yet fewer than 40 executions. Death row means a near-automatic 7+ years of additional life for those sentenced, and often more than double that. Does that sound like a deterrent? Some people are born killers, but I feel confident that some people, if they knew they would be put to death within a year of conviction, would think twice, and maybe follow a different path in life.


If we don't trust the legal system to get it right, we need to fix it. We can't go through all the motions then stop short because someone challenges the decision. My view is that if we put down the thousands of convicted murderers that are guilty beyond any doubt, then that 1:10 ratio would become 1:1000. Do you like those numbers better?

Due to DNA and the specter of previous overturned convictions, modern convictions are much more likely to be solid.

But I don't see the death penalty as punishment. I see it as protecting society by permanently removing those who lost their rights to live in it through their own actions.
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:33 PM
 
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I do know Police Officers and witnesses will lie and Prosecuting Attorneys will coach and push people to lie anything to win a case. Just a matter of Defense Attorneys and Juries to see what is going on. I seen one time a Judge point out what another Judge and Prosecutor was doing was illegal. They did it just because they didn't like the Guy on trial. It was brushed off and the Guy was released but it could have been much worse.

brushrunner
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:34 AM
 
684 posts, read 863,104 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmaxnc View Post
There's no evidence of the deterrent factor of the death penalty because it is so poorly implemented. We're averaging 14K+ murders a year, but yet fewer than 40 executions. Death row means a near-automatic 7+ years of additional life for those sentenced, and often more than double that. Does that sound like a deterrent? Some people are born killers, but I feel confident that some people, if they knew they would be put to death within a year of conviction, would think twice, and maybe follow a different path in life.


If we don't trust the legal system to get it right, we need to fix it. We can't go through all the motions then stop short because someone challenges the decision. My view is that if we put down the thousands of convicted murderers that are guilty beyond any doubt, then that 1:10 ratio would become 1:1000. Do you like those numbers better?

Due to DNA and the specter of previous overturned convictions, modern convictions are much more likely to be solid.

But I don't see the death penalty as punishment. I see it as protecting society by permanently removing those who lost their rights to live in it through their own actions.
The standard for the death penalty is not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". Rather, jurors are told they must have "no lingering doubt".

I'm not sure how they could differentiate between "no lingering doubt" and "no doubt".
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:15 AM
 
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While I believe in Capital Punishment at least in theory I'd be OK with abolishing it due to the fact that it unevenly applied. The likelyhood of one being sentenced to death and/or ultimately executed depends more on where you committed the crime, whether or not you can afford good legal representation, which district court your appeals are heard in, your race or sex, etc..... I have absolutely ZERO issue with executing those that commit premeditated murder but I do have serious issue with the uneven application of the death penalty.

I'd be OK with going to life without parole in spartan conditions (three hots and a cot, no TV, cable, video games, internet, visits. locked in solitary confinement) but you know darn well that if we went to LWOP then the criminal lovers would be attacking that and saying LWOP is too cruel.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:34 PM
 
684 posts, read 863,104 times
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Originally Posted by dubyanumberone View Post
While I believe in Capital Punishment at least in theory I'd be OK with abolishing it due to the fact that it unevenly applied. The likelyhood of one being sentenced to death and/or ultimately executed depends more on where you committed the crime, whether or not you can afford good legal representation, which district court your appeals are heard in, your race or sex, etc..... I have absolutely ZERO issue with executing those that commit premeditated murder but I do have serious issue with the uneven application of the death penalty.

I'd be OK with going to life without parole in spartan conditions (three hots and a cot, no TV, cable, video games, internet, visits. locked in solitary confinement) but you know darn well that if we went to LWOP then the criminal lovers would be attacking that and saying LWOP is too cruel.

There are cases where the evidence is so clear that the defendant did indeed murder a person or persons with premeditation. But many cases do not have evidence that provides that level of certitude.

Moreover, we ask jurors who have no real understanding of the certitude that our standard or proof requires to assess the reliability of evidence against a truly vague standard. And with a wrongful conviction rate that exceeds 9% in capital murder trials, its clear that we need to revise things en masse, at least as regards capital murder trials.
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