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Old 06-03-2014, 08:17 AM
 
584 posts, read 920,602 times
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Many families who believed in vaccines, believed in the social responsibility of it - saw a child become very ill with a vaccine - extreme fever, high pitched screaming, the onset of chronic diarrhea, sometimes seizures - alongside a sudden loss of skills and interaction - a fast decline into regressive autism - stopped vaccinating all of their children. If that happened to your child, would you still continue to vaccinate?

 
Old 06-03-2014, 08:18 AM
 
8,308 posts, read 8,586,427 times
Reputation: 25929
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
Excuse me, but you and all the others on here advocating are ALIVE today aren't you? Did your parents and grandparents survive these diseases? The died as BABIES from these diseases??? Or maybe it was ONLY me from previous generations who LIVED????

YOU as a descendent ARE proof. Of course, that means NOTHING either does it?
Do you know that prior to 1870 that approximately 2/3's of all children who were born died before they lived to be age 5?

http://sparkaction.org/node/526

I'm something of a historian and I've read accounts of people who lived in those days mourning the loss of their children. Abraham Lincoln and his wife Mary had a total of four sons and all but one died before reaching adulthood. The cause of death in all cases was infectious disease. What do you think it was like for a mother to stand next to a child slowly drowning because his lungs were filling with fluid because of an infectious disease that could easily be prevented today? You don't see those things because immunization and other public health measures have virtually eradicated serious infectious diseases.

I've said before and I'll say again that probably the biggest failing that immunization has as a public health measure is that it has been so successful. Its been so successful in preventing disease that people have now forgotten how awful diseases like red measles, small pox, diptheria, polio, and whooping cough really were. We humans are a forgetful lot. If a couple of generations avoid having disease because of immunization and the herd immunity it creates in our population, some believe there was never a problem in the first place.

I pray people don't listen to your nonsense.

Last edited by markg91359; 06-03-2014 at 08:53 AM..
 
Old 06-03-2014, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Melbourne, Australia
9,783 posts, read 15,345,327 times
Reputation: 2833
Quote:
Originally Posted by highpoint1 View Post
Why anyone would deny their child or other family member any vaccinations at all is a complete mystery to me.

Medicine and science have made great strides; the ignorance, confusion, and conspiracy-mindedness of a few shouldn't endanger public health.
Pretty much. The parents are ignorant/paranoid and really in some ways simply selfish for imposing their own beliefs on their child, thus endangering not only their child but the public as a whole. There are really some things a parent should have NO SAY OVER. I mean parents are charged for abusing their child, so why should putting their child at such risk be tolerated?
 
Old 06-03-2014, 09:59 AM
 
6,952 posts, read 8,881,411 times
Reputation: 7800
Because of this idiotic fad, kids are starting to get childhood diseases that have not been seen in so long that the MDs don't recognize them, don't know how to treat them -- and I suspect they do not think soon enough to quarantine, either.

Jo48: My grandfather missed an entire year of school because of diphtheria, a disease we now vaccinate for. He never reached his full height and resented his fate so much that he became a legend in the family for his cruelty to others. The effects echo to this day, believe me. one of my favorite authors recently died a hideous death due to post-polio syndrome, as did one of my favorite high school teachers. My great-grandmother died of a contagious disease it is now pretty easy to treat. I have a few genealogists in my family and when you go back more than a couple of generations, you start reading about relative after relative who died of the flu, died of measles, died of black scarlatina, died of smallpox. This is dozens of people in a family that would be 3x larger if all the children had survived. Those are not mythical -- they have photos of the headstones and copies of the death certs to prove that they died in childhood.
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Downtown Raleigh
1,619 posts, read 2,900,408 times
Reputation: 2032
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
That's actually a really bad analogy. Cars are designed to run on good tires, and running on a mix of good and bad tires is provably bad. Not so much with the front different than the back, but definitely one side different than the other can cause problems.

But there is nothing wrong with spacing the vaccinations out over several weeks. The only disadvantage is multiple doctor visits. If the parent is willing to pay for the visits (insurance likely won't cover it), then no harm done. Well, one more disadvantage... if the kid goes to the doctor every 2 weeks and gets a shot every time he will quickly gain an intense fear/hatred of doctors.

I'm a very firm believer in vaccinations. My kids have and will continue to get all theirs, and I will argue with anyone who insists on no vaccinations. But getting the vaccinations by a certain age is the goal; whether the kid gets 4 shots in one day or 4 shots spread out over 2 months really doesn't affect the outcome.

Using science (and more importantly, poking holes in the "science" used by the other side) is much more effective tool than bad analogies that can grow into easily-defeated straw-man arguments.

Timely Versus Delayed Early Childhood Vaccination and Seizures
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:14 AM
 
9,078 posts, read 5,663,077 times
Reputation: 5257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antsy994 View Post
I think any parent who doesn't vaccinate their child in America should be criminally charged with negligence and attempted manslaughter.

Go look at some photos of what happens to a child when they get late-stage polio or meningitis --- then you will see why these IGNORANT parents need to do some lengthy prison time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postman View Post
Pretty much. The parents are ignorant/paranoid and really in some ways simply selfish for imposing their own beliefs on their child, thus endangering not only their child but the public as a whole. There are really some things a parent should have NO SAY OVER. I mean parents are charged for abusing their child, so why should putting their child at such risk be tolerated?
Interesting , the same government that allows proven toxins in our food sources is all of a sudden going to be ethical when it comes to vaccinations and people blindly believe this ? I'm skeptical to say the least. Now had my wife and I had a child we where going to heavily investigate this topic. I'm sort of on the fence with it but skeptical. I never can understand when people just blindly follow things...
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,501 posts, read 26,116,900 times
Reputation: 26477
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
Interesting , the same government that allows proven toxins in our food sources is all of a sudden going to be ethical when it comes to vaccinations and people blindly believe this ? I'm skeptical to say the least. Now had my wife and I had a child we where going to heavily investigate this topic. I'm sort of on the fence with it but skeptical. I never can understand when people just blindly follow things...
The science behind vaccines is well established and has nothing to do with the government. Government is involved only in the context of protecting public health.
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,773 posts, read 3,679,948 times
Reputation: 4236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I had measles when I was a 6 month old baby. That was 65 years ago. Please tell me how "100% of people who had measles are worse off"? I cannot possibly think of anything bad that has happened to me having had measles. Actually, I CAN think of something that is very good from having it. I have you called "no such thing as natural body immunity". 100%. I do not need to be vaccinated, or get a booster, against measles EVER. The same is also true for Mumps and Rubella which I also had as a baby.
I also had measles when I was a baby (caught it before I could be vaccinated). According to my mother, I had pretty much all the symptoms of measles including a very high fever and a highly contagious rash over my entire body. I went to the doctor for the fever and had to be quarantined. No, this was not chicken pox; I had that when I was six and I remember it myself. Other than the doctor and quarantine, I'm assuming your experience with measles was the same. The worst common (more than 1 in 100) side effects of the vaccine include (out of 100 average children):
  • 4 may have high fever
  • 4 may be irritable
  • 1 may have swelling of salivary glands
  • 5 may have a non-infectious faint red rash
So yes, I stand by the statement that 100% of the people who catch measles (who have all of the symptoms in the list at once, plus many more) are worse off than 100% of the people who have mild side effects from the vaccine. Including you. You don't remember it, but the problems your parents had to deal with while you were suffering through measles were far worse than the problems associated with the rare vaccine side effect. That is what I meant by "100% worse off".

And those are just the common problems. Throw in hospitalization for extreme fever, pneumonia, croup, fever-induced convulsion, encephalitis...

Also, you helped to prove my statement about no such thing as "natural body immunity"... you caught measles and had to suffer through it. Yes, you are immune now, just as I'm immune to measles and chicken pox (from catching them). But I'm also immune to all the other contagious diseases without having to suffer through them because I was vaccinated.

The immunity from vaccination is exactly the same as immunity from catching the disease. A weakened or dead form of the virus is introduced to the body and the body's immune system learns to recognize the viruses as "bad" and kills them. Both methods (actually catching the disease vs. the vaccination) result in exactly the same immunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
BTW, both that child and I were also unvaccinated against the flu also. Flu went around the school numerous times. Better start the vax for that one too. Do you know that boy (or me) ever got the flu? In the two years that I worked with him, he was not out sick ONE SINGLE DAY. I wasn't either. How could THAT be possibly with being vaccinated???????
To the best of my knowledge, I have never had the flu in my life. In spite of never getting vaccinated and with being around multiple roommates and relatives who were infected (including my ex-wife, who would be down for a week). But the year my (now ex-)wife was pregnant with my first child I started getting annual flu vaccinations, and will continue to get them as long my kids are too young to care for themselves. The risk (being unable to care for my children for a few days) to reward (umm... bragging rights about not getting a vaccine??) ratio is just too high for me.
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:34 AM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,202,214 times
Reputation: 13392
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabchuck View Post
Interesting , the same government that allows proven toxins in our food sources is all of a sudden going to be ethical when it comes to vaccinations and people blindly believe this ? I'm skeptical to say the least. Now had my wife and I had a child we where going to heavily investigate this topic. I'm sort of on the fence with it but skeptical. I never can understand when people just blindly follow things...
I do think we should all be our own advocates. Nobody will ever care about your children as you do. The issue that I see is that some folk don't seem to know the difference between legitimate sources and quackery. And not only that, some of us are not able to grasp the science and statistics of the studies made available. We should definitely investigate, but a point is going to come where we have to have some trust in health care providers.

For example, I've been looking into sun screen for my 1 year old. I understand that her body surface area, compared to her weight, is much larger than that of an older child or adult. This apparently is a part of the issue with babies and sun screen. I called my ped nurse as the final call on the issue because I'm not finding the exact answers I want via google with ease. She should know this stuff because it's what she and the dr's in the practice do.

Further, do you ever take advil, tylenol, or any over the counter or even a script? If yes, then you will probably face greater issues giving that stuff to your family than any vaccine.
 
Old 06-03-2014, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Hawaii-Puna District
3,754 posts, read 9,534,282 times
Reputation: 2444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
I had measles when I was a 6 month old baby. That was 65 years ago. Please tell me how "100% of people who had measles are worse off"? I cannot possibly think of anything bad that has happened to me having had measles. Actually, I CAN think of something that is very good from having it. I have you called "no such thing as natural body immunity". 100%. I do not need to be vaccinated, or get a booster, against measles EVER. The same is also true for Mumps and Rubella which I also had as a baby...
Consider yourself very lucky.

Have you ever gone to an older cemetery and looked at how many tombstones have the names/dates of small children who died very young? I would hazard a guess that many of them died from measles, flu, etc. I bet those parents who lost those children would have gladly vaccinated their child if it was available to them back then.
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