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The problem with spacing vaccines is that the kids often end up missing some. It's a way to be a refuser without actually refusing.
Intentionally missing appointments for spaced shots is not "spacing", it is "refusal". With spaced shots or all-at-once shots the doctor will note the vaccines on the child's chart as he gets them.
If you have the shots before Kindergarten, then whether your kid went home with two sore arms and a sore butt after a single doctor's visit or whether you got the shots spaced out over several months doesn't matter in the long run. If you do NOT have a properly filled out shot record by the start of Kindergarten then you are a "refuser" and must file a exemption (either medical necessity because of illness, a religious excuse, or else the philosophical exemption allowed in some states).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz
Anyhow. There are TONS of evidence about vaccination negative effects. Do your best educated decision.
I don't care how good a layperson is, even a black belt in Google-Fu doesn't make you more knowledgeable than someone with all the years of higher-education required to get a medical degree. But if you really want to base your decision on Google results, make sure you look up the cons of not getting a vaccination to compare to the cons of getting a vaccination. Take measles for example. There is even a handy color-coded graphic display (green, yellow, red) showing potential outcomes, and the "no vaccine" graphic isn't too terribly different from the "vaccine" graphic. Until you read the descriptions and realized that the symptoms and problems in the green portion of the "no vaccine" (fever; cough; runny nose; red, painful eyes; rash; highly contagious) is actually worse than the yellow portion of the "vaccine" graphic. So looking at the most common reactions, 100% of people who catch measles are worse off than 100% of people who get vaccines. And there is no such thing as "natural body immunity" to measles.
Are there chances for really bad side effects with the vaccine? Yes. But nowhere near the chances of bad complications for catching measles. The chances of rare complications (encephalitis, thrombocytopenia) drops from 5 in 1000 (0.5%) to 27 in 1,000,000 (0.0027%) after getting the vaccine.
So on one side, you have a former Playboy Bunny claiming vaccines gave her child autism based on a report that was so bad it was retracted from all legitimate medical publications after review. On the other side you have documented proof of vaccines all but eradicating diseases that used to kill a significant portion of the human population every year, except pockets of the disease keep popping up in places where anti-vaxxers congregate. So go ahead, Google away.
There are TONS of evidence about vaccination negative effects. Do your best educated decision.
There are risks to everything you do whether it be driving to work, crossing the street, getting a vaccination, or sticking your face in a fan....
Take a look at how many kids were killed or injured riding a bicycle last year. Or how many were killed in car accidents. Or playground accidents... School sports... Sticking your face in a fan... (ouch!) The chance of having a serious adverse effect due to a vaccination is hundreds of times less than each of these, and millions of times less than sticking your face in a fan (I say this only because it was in "The Naked Gun" which most people won't even recognize and also because I saw a kid do it making a Darth Vader Voice and cut himself up badly).
With regards to a medical procedure the question is always whether the benefit of the test, medication, procedure, etc. outweighs the risk. And the benefit from vaccinations is incredible when compared to the minuscule risk.
Are there negative effects to vaccinations? Absolutely. Anytime you introduce a foreign substance via a needle or even sprayed into your nostrils there is some risk. The most common being infection, allergic reactions, interaction with an another medication, an unknown condition, etc. But the numbers today are so small compared to the number of deaths these diseases would cause if they were to take hold like they did up until the 20th century.
Not only that, but the risk continues to decrease yet fewer people are vaccinating. Modern manufacturing is orders of magnitude more clean then just 30-40 years ago. More natural preservatives, the use of dead viruses vs. live weakened viruses are just a few of the examples. Technology has advanced so much in all fields, and yet people trust medicine less. Take a look at the TVs of 30-40 years ago and your 70+ inch flatscreen HD TV. The same types of advances have occurred in vaccination technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highpoint1
Why anyone would deny their child or other family member any vaccinations at all is a complete mystery to me.
Medicine and science have made great strides; the ignorance, confusion, and conspiracy-mindedness of a few shouldn't endanger public health.
There are several reasons people don't get themselves or their children vaccinated. Some are actually valid if you think about it. Just to name a few:
1. There is much more inherent distrust in the government, which I actually consider to be a valid reason. Need I go here. If we even just stick to medicine we can see where the government has experimented on its own citizens with syphilis, smallpox, food poisoning, LSD, etc.
2. There is much more inherent distrust in major corporations. Again, very easy to document.
3. Small # math. Anyone that has taken statistics can tell you that when your population becomes tiny, small changes will completely distort the outcome to the casual observer. It's like when you have 3 bad reactions one year and 5 the next, the headlines can read "Almost a 100% increase". It may be that from 3 to 5 is statistically insignificant meaning it's basically the same.
4. The Military. Just about everyone will know someone in the military these days, and when you get vaccinated for everything in any location on the planet, you do get some adverse reactions, and when it happens people are very vocal about it.
5. How connected we are. When someone even hears about a bad vaccination story, it is posted and all 3,000 of their friends get to hear about it instantly. Usually they are not true and blown out of proportion, but connectivity spreads a controversy like wildfire.
So, in a way, I don't blame some of the hysteria. I have intelligent friends that have bought into this (and other non-scientific claims). Scientists need to sell their work when it is difficult for the average person to understand.
There are a lot of bad reasons too. There has been a shift to a celebration of ignorance in our country. While it is true that no one should be any more equal in our country, that doesn't mean every opinion should be treated equally. Just because a good looking former playboy playmate says something, is not a reason to believe it. (She also believes front brakes on a car aren't needed).
There is also been a push to equate religion with medical knowledge. Take a look at where and what Church had the biggest outbreak of measles in 2012 (maybe 2013.... It's not worth looking up that name).
What I do personally object to is the people that count on passing the risk (again... albeit very very small risk) onto other people and other people's children. I know of more than one parent that has told me that if everyone else if vaccinated, then there is no need for their child to be vaccinated. They are counting on herd immunity of everyone else protecting their child.
I personally believe that the final decision can be up to the parent. However, that non-immunized child has absolutely no right to government services like public school or day care. While the "anti-vaccination" crowd won the right to send their kids to public school, they haven't won the right not to be sued for child endangerment from a vaccinated student that contracts an illness from a non-vaccinated child. (Yes this can occur).
Stepping off soap box.....
I welcome rebuttals.
There is religious resistance. I personally believe everyone should be able to practice their religion up to and not including endangering their children or others. Not vaccinating children is the same as not treating children which I personally believe is abuse.
The National Autism Association believes:
Vaccinations can trigger or exacerbate autism in some, if not many, children, especially those who are genetically predisposed to immune, autoimmune or inflammatory conditions.
The debate about whether vaccines can cause regressive autism began in 1985 with the publishing of the landmark book DPT: A Shot in the Dark by Harris Coulter and Barbara Loe Fisher. Among the more than 100 cases of DPT vaccine induced brain inflammation and immune system dysfunction detailed in the book were children who had developed regressive autism after suffering a brain inflammation and encephalopathy following DPT vaccination.
When Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986, which created a federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), the first awards for vaccine injury and death were given to children who had suffered a brain inflammation/encephalopathy after DPT vaccination and died or were left with a variety of brain and immune system problems such as medication resistant seizures, mental retardation, learning disabilities, ADD/ADHD and other developmental delays. Since then, federal compensation has been awarded to children who developed brain inflammation/encephalopathy after DPT or DTaP vaccination and whose permanent disabilities include autistic behaviors. (In 2008, the federal government conceded that a girl who had received multiple vaccines on one day and regressed into autism was entitled to compensation for her injuries.)
To date, only the MMR vaccine and mercury in vaccines have been studied.
With so many millions of children affected by autism–and the spiraling increase in that number–shouldn’t scientists take seriously the eye witness reports by thousands of parents who blame vaccines for triggering autistic spectrum in their previously healthy children?
There is a pressing need to examine without prejudice whether the vaccine-autism association is valid by comparing autism (and other health) outcomes in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children.
Why is such an obviously necessary research approach so contentious and, therefore, neglected?
Whose financial investments are threatened by an analysis of data comparing the health of children vaccinated with those not vaccinated?
The CDC has refused to study the autism rate in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated kids, because they are a captive agency of vaccine manufacturers. The former head of the CDC is now the head of Merck vaccines, the largest US vaccine manufacturer.
Intentionally missing appointments for spaced shots is not "spacing", it is "refusal". With spaced shots or all-at-once shots the doctor will note the vaccines on the child's chart as he gets them.
If you have the shots before Kindergarten, then whether your kid went home with two sore arms and a sore butt after a single doctor's visit or whether you got the shots spaced out over several months doesn't matter in the long run. If you do NOT have a properly filled out shot record by the start of Kindergarten then you are a "refuser" and must file a exemption (either medical necessity because of illness, a religious excuse, or else the philosophical exemption allowed in some states).
I don't care how good a layperson is, even a black belt in Google-Fu doesn't make you more knowledgeable than someone with all the years of higher-education required to get a medical degree. But if you really want to base your decision on Google results, make sure you look up the cons of not getting a vaccination to compare to the cons of getting a vaccination. Take measles for example. There is even a handy color-coded graphic display (green, yellow, red) showing potential outcomes, and the "no vaccine" graphic isn't too terribly different from the "vaccine" graphic. Until you read the descriptions and realized that the symptoms and problems in the green portion of the "no vaccine" (fever; cough; runny nose; red, painful eyes; rash; highly contagious) is actually worse than the yellow portion of the "vaccine" graphic. So looking at the most common reactions, 100% of people who catch measles are worse off than 100% of people who get vaccines. And there is no such thing as "natural body immunity" to measles.
Are there chances for really bad side effects with the vaccine? Yes. But nowhere near the chances of bad complications for catching measles. The chances of rare complications (encephalitis, thrombocytopenia) drops from 5 in 1000 (0.5%) to 27 in 1,000,000 (0.0027%) after getting the vaccine.
So on one side, you have a former Playboy Bunny claiming vaccines gave her child autism based on a report that was so bad it was retracted from all legitimate medical publications after review. On the other side you have documented proof of vaccines all but eradicating diseases that used to kill a significant portion of the human population every year, except pockets of the disease keep popping up in places where anti-vaxxers congregate. So go ahead, Google away.
I had measles when I was a 6 month old baby. That was 65 years ago. Please tell me how "100% of people who had measles are worse off"? I cannot possibly think of anything bad that has happened to me having had measles. Actually, I CAN think of something that is very good from having it. I have you called "no such thing as natural body immunity". 100%. I do not need to be vaccinated, or get a booster, against measles EVER. The same is also true for Mumps and Rubella which I also had as a baby.
Sue a unvaccinated kid for giving measles to another kid? Ever hear of HIPPA? You will never know who is vaccinated, or has the disease under medical privacy laws. Maybe you think that HIPPA should be eliminated? Maybe unvaccinated people should wear some kind of arm band to announce to the world their vaccination status so the vaccinated can stay away?
I worked in a public school as a para to an unvaccinated child. Under HIPPA only myself and the classroom teacher knew that; not other staff member, and certainly not the parents of the students. There were 2 measles outbreaks in that school. WHO were the kids? I have no clue because we were not told. No right to know. It certainly wasn't the unvaccinated boy (or me) I worked with. Staff and parents of the kids, were in fear, rushing out to make sure they were up to date on their boosters. Sorry, people, not me. I HAD MEASLES. "Natural Body Immunity". 100% worse off??????
BTW, both that child and I were also unvaccinated against the flu also. Flu went around the school numerous times. Better start the vax for that one too. Do you know that boy (or me) ever got the flu? In the two years that I worked with him, he was not out sick ONE SINGLE DAY. I wasn't either. How could THAT be possibly with being vaccinated???????
Congressman introduces bill requiring study of autism rate in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated | The Refusers
Vaccines do not cause autism. That has been definitively confirmed with many studies, including one in Denmark that showed no difference in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.
The single case in which a child was awarded compensation by the vaccine court was for a mitochondrial disorder with autism like symptoms. It was a judicial decision not based on science, and a poor one.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 06-03-2014 at 07:28 AM..
Reason: Fixed formatting
I had measles when I was a 6 month old baby. That was 65 years ago. Please tell me how "100% of people who had measles are worse off"? I cannot possibly think of anything bad that has happened to me having had measles. Actually, I CAN think of something that is very good from having it. I have you called "no such thing as natural body immunity". 100%. I do not need to be vaccinated, or get a booster, against measles EVER. The same is also true for Mumps and Rubella which I also had as a baby.
Sue a unvaccinated kid for giving measles to another kid? Ever hear of HIPPA? You will never know who is vaccinated, or has the disease under medical privacy laws. Maybe you think that HIPPA should be eliminated? Maybe unvaccinated people should wear some kind of arm band to announce to the world their vaccination status so the vaccinated can stay away?
I worked in a public school as a para to an unvaccinated child. Under HIPPA only myself and the classroom teacher knew that; not other staff member, and certainly not the parents of the students. There were 2 measles outbreaks in that school. WHO were the kids? I have no clue because we were not told. No right to know. It certainly wasn't the unvaccinated boy (or me) I worked with. Staff and parents of the kids, were in fear, rushing out to make sure they were up to date on their boosters. Sorry, people, not me. I HAD MEASLES. "Natural Body Immunity". 100% worse off??????
BTW, both that child and I were also unvaccinated against the flu also. Flu went around the school numerous times. Better start the vax for that one too. Do you know that boy (or me) ever got the flu? In the two years that I worked with him, he was not out sick ONE SINGLE DAY. I wasn't either. How could THAT be possibly with being vaccinated???????
Everyone who catches measles is worse off than someone who does not. One hundred percent of them got sick! Moderator cut: Against Great Debates guidelines
You continue to act as if your personal experiences negate the science. You did not die from measles, so no one should take the vaccine because measles is no big deal. You did not catch flu, so no one should take the vaccine. Just because you did not catch it when you did not take the vaccine means no one needs the vaccine.
That is really poor logic. Kids do have severe complications and sometimes die from measles. People, including kids, die from flu. Most who die from flu are unvaccinated - 90% for the 2013 season:
Vaccines do not cause autism. That has been definitively confirmed with many studies, including one in Denmark that showed no difference in vaccinated and unvaccinated children.
Even if an association were found between a vaccine and autism, that doesn't mean the vaccine CAUSES it. It simply means there is an association. And not vaccinating your child against measles, mumps, and rubella, serious and possibly fatal illnesses, because of one study which finds a possible association between the vaccine and autism is pure foolishness
Last edited by Oldhag1; 06-03-2014 at 07:34 AM..
Reason: No head smacks. If you want them to know you repped them use the rep button in right hand corner of post and write your name
Even if an association were found between a vaccine and autism, that doesn't mean the vaccine CAUSES it. It simply means there is an association. And not vaccinating your child against measles, mumps, and rubella, serious and possibly fatal illnesses, because of one study which finds a possible association between the vaccine and autism is pure foolishness
What puzzles me is that people continue to believe vaccines cause autism based on a single fake "study", the purpose of which was to sell a different measles vaccine.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 06-03-2014 at 07:32 AM..
Reason: Edited quote
Those of us who understand the vaccine debate grow tired of having to respond to the same points over and over again. I feel a great sense of fatigue setting in. A large group of studies have proven their is no link between autism and vaccine--or any other serious childhood diseases.
I'm citing this article in the magazine Scientific American from 2011 which is a review of these studies. Perhaps, the name Scientific American means something to other people in the United States.
Any activity in life involves at least some minor degree of risk. That might include walking to the store to get milk or taking your children to play in a public park. What all of us do implicitly is balance risk against benefit. The slight possibility that our child might get a cut on playground equipment is worth the benefit of the exercise and camraderie they experience getting to play at the park. We risk being struck by a car crossing the street to get milk at the grocery store because this risk is comparatively small and our body's need for nutrition is great. Of course, there is slight risk from taking vaccines. However, the benefit of not having to worry about diseases like tetanus, diptheria, polio, and measles vastly outweighs the slight risk involved.
I plead with people to make important decisions like vaccination based on sound reasons and not personal experiences described by those who oppose vaccination.
Last edited by markg91359; 06-03-2014 at 08:10 AM..
Everyone who catches measles is worse off than someone who does not. One hundred percent of them got sick! Moderator cut: Against Great Debates guidelines
You continue to act as if your personal experiences negate the science. You did not die from measles, so no one should take the vaccine because measles is no big deal. You did not catch flu, so no one should take the vaccine. Just because you did not catch it when you did not take the vaccine means no one needs the vaccine.
That is really poor logic. Kids do have severe complications and sometimes die from measles. People, including kids, die from flu. Most who die from flu are unvaccinated - 90% for the 2013 season:
Excuse me, but you and all the others on here advocating are ALIVE today aren't you? Did your parents and grandparents survive these diseases? The died as BABIES from these diseases??? Or maybe it was ONLY me from previous generations who LIVED????
YOU as a descendent ARE proof. Of course, that means NOTHING either does it?
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