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Old 07-14-2014, 07:50 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
I am a black person who was born and raised in the UK and spent much of my life there.The last in-your-face racism I experienced there and in Europe was more than two decades ago.You're seriously out of touch with how multi-culturism has evolved in Europe.
I now spend half the year in Florida and half the year in homes I own in the UK and Europe - I get more hassle here in the US than I ever do in Europe.
I only know what I personally experienced the 3 1/2 years I lived there before I moved 8 years ago. If it has changed that much in 8 years that is wonderful. But, I don't think so because I checked with a friend who has base housing as part of his organization he is charge of in Germany. According to him there are still landlords who tell them that they want to rent to American military but only as long as they aren't black. I don't think he lied to me. In the US no one would say that out loud, let alone put it in writing. Naturally, that landlord is not put on the recommended list, but that is all they can do. Maybe the UK is different, I only spent 5 days there and all I can remember is people being extremely polite. But otherwise, my experience is that it is better in the US.
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Old 07-14-2014, 10:14 AM
 
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Oldhag do you realise you mentioned two countries (Italy and Germany) which together number 140 million of inhabitants (compared to 330 million of Americans) and which combined are smaller than Texas?
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
They didn't. The place went deadly silent and suddenly people were extremely interested in whatever was on the table in front of them, because that was the only place they were looking. We left. The message we took from it was that there was no social stigma for the expression of racism.

It is funny how everyone thinks the US is so racist when in reality, at least for this person who has to live the consequences, it sure felt a lot worse in every other country we were in. Don't even get me started on Asia. I think we interact with people of other races (not necessarily cultures) more in the Americas, so as individuals we are probably exposed to acts of racism more. In the US, part of our culture is that we openly talk about our faults, so it is out there for all to see and discuss.

Cultures that hide their flaws are much easier to see as delightful and charming.
I agree with what you've written.

There is a greater culture of racism in European countries and that's largely because we're talking about far more homogeneous and less pluralistic societies. The things you can say with impunity in most European countries would quickly get you in trouble with the Anti-Defamation League, the NAACP, etc. And if you live in a place like Southern California or Texas, it's probably best to keep whatever opinions you have about minorities under wraps.
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Old 07-14-2014, 11:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I agree with what you've written.

There is a greater culture of racism in European countries and that's largely because we're talking about far more homogeneous and less pluralistic societies. The things you can say with impunity in most European countries would quickly get you in trouble with the Anti-Defamation League, the NAACP, etc. And if you live in a place like Southern California or Texas, it's probably best to keep whatever opinions you have about minorities under wraps.
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.
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Old 07-14-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.
Actually, when I originally addressed this I spoke of 5 countries, which it noted was among others, and it was not two isolated incidents. That is merely what I chose to give as examples. I know how I was treated in Italy, and it wasn't as well as my four white friends. Even one of them commented on it. Waiters had a tendency to fawn all over them and I did well to get my order taken. It is what it is.

The size of the population of the country has nothing to do with this. If you are saying those nations are just one part of Europe, I agree, but each of our states are part of our nation, so it is no different than when people from other nations make assumptions about the entire United States based a visit to Florida or New York.

I liked living in Europe, but my point is that it isn't as picturesque and quaint as people envision. It definitely isn't free from negative traits either, such as discrimination and crime. The major difference in those perceptions have to do with the free press we have over here. We talk about our dirty laundry.

I am just going to address this once as it borders on being off topic:
As to whether or not Italy would mercilessly send back refugees at their border:
African Migrants, Turned Away by Italy, Abused in Libya - TIME
North African refugees on NATO ship turned away by both Italy and Malta Refugee Resettlement Watch
You don't need to build a wall, you have the sea.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
You don't need to build a wall, you have the sea.
Basically.

The U.S. accepts more legal immigrants than France, the U.K., Germany, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece, Sweden and Switzerland combined. In addition to our legal immigrants, we also have far more illegal immigrants than the EU despite having a much smaller population.

Quote:
What is striking about both the scholarly and the political estimates for illegal immigration in Europe is that they are relatively low compared with the United States, even if we consider variations by country. The estimate that illegal immigrants make up at most 0.68 percent of the population for France is considerably lower than in Britain (approximately 1.4 percent), and far lower than that of the United States where the 1112 million undocumented immigrants, which make up roughly 3.8 percent of the population.
The Challenge of Illegal Immigration in Europe
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
France has massive ghettos. And Muslims and other African immigrants are disproportionately represented in France's prisons. Of course, there will be a lower absolute number (and %) there than in the U.S. because we have so many more people of color. I mean, there are more minorities living in Greater Los Angeles than there are in the United Kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.
I'm not so concerned with overt racism as there's not much of it in the western world today (though there is decidely more of it in Europe). I think more about the progress of minorities in these societies. In the U.S., we've come much farther in this respect than anyone else.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:18 PM
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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I'm not so concerned with overt racism as there's not much of it in the western world today (though there is decidely more of it in Europe). I think more about the progress of minorities in these societies. In the U.S., we've come much farther in this respect than anyone else.
Even Canada? I suspect it's not worse than the US.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Originally Posted by nei View Post
Even Canada? I suspect it's not worse than the US.
You mean in terms of overt racism? As I said, there's not much of that anymore. There aren't too many people foolish enough to burn crosses on people's lawns nowadays.

Racism today is more subtle...it's really more of a culture of exclusion than it is outright hostility. This is why many Black people hate Boston, a fact that's incomprehensible to so many whites considering its progressive reputation during the ante-bellum days.

Canada--from what friends and family say--falls into the same category as Boston.
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Old 07-14-2014, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
27,639 posts, read 24,864,856 times
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I can't say I've encountered too much racism in the US--overt or covert. What I encounter is more or less cultural obliviousness. There are simply a ton of people who live in their little bubble worlds and lack the capacity to see things from a non-majority perspective. I usually liken this to right-handers not being able to fathom what life is like for southpaws living in a right-handed world.

In the U.S., though, there's at least an effort to be culturally sensitive. That's not the case everywhere.
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