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Old 07-14-2014, 01:41 PM
nei nei won $500 in our forum's Most Engaging Poster Contest - Thirteenth Edition (Jan-Feb 2015). 

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Location: Western Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Racism today is more subtle...it's really more of a culture of exclusion than it is outright hostility. This is why many Black people hate Boston, a fact that's incomprehensible to so many whites considering its progressive reputation during the ante-bellum days.

Canada--from what friends and family say--falls into the same category as Boston.
To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that many black people hate Boston (I think it's reputation from the busing crisis is undeserved) but I can see why it wouldn't on the list of "top places for a black person to want to move to". The similaity with Canada makes a bit of sense, as they're both places that never had a large black population and Massachusetts is perhaps more similar to Canada than most of the country.

You don't think the levels of residential segregation in many northern big cities hint at the levels of racism or at least a more race-based identity? For example, London is roughly 10% black, but its black population isn't that segregated, I think there isn't a neighborhood that's more than 30% black. A similar US metro (10% is low for a city but not that low for a metropiltan area) would have a much more concentrated black population. And the black-white intermarriage rate is much higher there. Perhaps not an indication of less racism, but less racial identity.

What about the quote on page 120 by Henry Louis Gates? Can't figure out how to quote it:

In a New Land: A Comparative View of Immigration - Nancy Foner - Google Books
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Old 07-14-2014, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
To be honest, I'm a bit surprised that many black people hate Boston (I think it's reputation from the busing crisis is undeserved) but I can see why it wouldn't on the list of "top places for a black person to want to move to". The similaity with Canada makes a bit of sense, as they're both places that never had a large black population and Massachusetts is perhaps more similar to Canada than most of the country.
It's often the places with the fewest black people where blacks experience the most racism. Historically, the opposite was certainly true. But to a great extent, a lot of southern communities have had to engage in a process of self-reflection that a lot of places in the north haven't. It's not so much a hostile racism there as it is a paternalistic, condescending type of racism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
You don't think the levels of residential segregation in many northern big cities hint at the levels of racism or at least a more race-based identity? For example, London is roughly 10% black, but its black population isn't that segregated, I think there isn't a neighborhood that's more than 30% black. A similar US metro (10% is low for a city but not that low for a metropiltan area) would have a much more concentrated black population. And the black-white intermarriage rate is much higher there. Perhaps not an indication of less racism, but less racial identity.

What about the quote on page 120 by Henry Louis Gates? Can't figure out how to quote it:

In a New Land: A Comparative View of Immigration - Nancy Foner - Google Books
Sure, Blacks are more integrated in Britain than they are in the U.S., largely owing to the fact that most Blacks arrived in Britain from 1960 onward. "Black" identity in Britain is a relatively nascent development. And why wouldn't it be? If you're immigrating to a different country, there's a bit of an expectation that you'll assimilate into the larger culture rather than develop a separate and distinct subculture.

I have no hard evidence to back this up, but I think that intermarriage rates among second-generation West Indians and Africans is much higher than it is among Black Americans. Is this a good thing? Depends. A lot of West Indians are honestly brain-washed and seek out white spouses because they see it as an improvement in social standing. Their parents come to America with a completely different mindset from the average black parent and they instill that in their children. There's some good in that in that their kids tend to be successful, but also some bad in that their identity becomes white-washed. So intermarriage can be a sign of more racial harmony or it could be a sign of something different altogether.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that European Countries accept illegal immigrants without threat of deportation?

I wonder what would happen if I drove 5 miles down the road and told The Canadians they need to take me because I am fleeing the oppression of America? Would they take me? I doubt it.
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Old 07-14-2014, 04:45 PM
 
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I think when people think "racism" they think black and white.
The Youtube pic is actually Anti semitic,big difference.


Also,it depends on the race of the person experiencing the racism.
For example,some Hispanics consider immigration reform racism.

To add,i think blacks experience more racism where there are more black people vs the opposite. Otherwise,the south would be bastion of racial tolerance.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:27 PM
 
Location: East coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I agree with what you've written.

There is a greater culture of racism in European countries and that's largely because we're talking about far more homogeneous and less pluralistic societies. The things you can say with impunity in most European countries would quickly get you in trouble with the Anti-Defamation League, the NAACP, etc. And if you live in a place like Southern California or Texas, it's probably best to keep whatever opinions you have about minorities under wraps.
Actually, hate speech laws are stronger in European countries and even in Canada than in the US.
For example, many of those countries have laws against Holocaust denial.

Whereas, freedom of speech is stronger in the US, so that laws attempting to limit speech that is racist or offensive would not pass, being unconstitutional.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:48 PM
 
Location: East coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post

Sure, Blacks are more integrated in Britain than they are in the U.S., largely owing to the fact that most Blacks arrived in Britain from 1960 onward. "Black" identity in Britain is a relatively nascent development. And why wouldn't it be? If you're immigrating to a different country, there's a bit of an expectation that you'll assimilate into the larger culture rather than develop a separate and distinct subculture.
Well, a lot of the black British have roots that came from West Indies colonies and African countries strongly influenced by British colonialism, so they're coming from it with a different perspective.

Who's to say that British West Indies culture is any less of a "Black" identity than Black US American culture? Both are equally New World cultures, developed over similar numbers of generations apart from Africa. It's just that British blacks might have migrated to the actual country/land of Britain a lot later, but remember West Indians were technically a part of Britain or the British empire itself until colonialism ended in the 60s; they still have ancestors gone through the same experiences of slavery, had to deal with struggles living under whites, and in some cases alongside other races (in the Caribbean).

Sometimes it feels like in certain places in the US, black identity is only equated with those of blacks whose ancestors came pre-1960s and assumed to be monolithic rather than acknowledging that blacks can have many cultures, just like whites, Asians etc.

People don't insist that white Americans have only one culture, that Greek Americans, Eastern European Americans that arrived post-1960s aren't as white as whites with colonial ancestry. Why not allow Blacks to be defined too by many cultures? After all, there are 1 billion Africans on Earth today. Most blacks aren't Black Americans numerically, after all, if you're talking the world as a whole, so I think one shouldn't equate Black identity to Black American culture alone, disregarding Black British, European, Caribbean, Latin American, African cultures as less part of the Black experience.

Last edited by markovian process; 07-14-2014 at 06:57 PM..
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.
Are you kidding? Most European countries have MUCH stricter immigration laws than the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany
**Immigration to Germany as a non-EU-citizen is still limited to skilled workers (individuals with either a university or polytechnic degree or at least 3 years of training together with job experience), students and their immediate family members. Germany knows 3 types of immigration titles: Visa (validity of up to 90 days), residence permit and settlement permit (permanent residence). Work permits – if granted – are no longer issued independently but included within the immigration title and are available for foreigners that either fall into one of the several available permit categories (IT specialists, company trained specialist within a group of companies, managing personnel, scientists, highly skilled workers with exceptional income, etc.) or can prove a public interest in the employment. The categories and all requirements are listed in the ordinance on employment.[2]. . . As Germany does not allow immigration without cause, it is necessary to be either enrolled with a school or university, have a specific job offer that fits the requirements of one of the work permit categories or intend to reunify with close family (spouse or minors) already within Germany (family reunification visa).

After obtaining a university degree, foreign students may stay for one year to find a job that matches their qualifications.
**

Actually, read the whole article. Just an example from one country.
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:59 PM
 
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America is NOT anymore or any less racist than any other nation. I do think people from every nation will try to downplay the ignorance within their own country and that in itself keeps hatred (whether in regards to race, religion, sex, disability) alive.

Until folks can admit that there will always be sexist, racist, homophobic or hateful people within their country, they'll continue to ignore any blatant discrimination or injustices. Everyone wants to portray their country as a diverse utopia but that's not the case

Also, I think it just so happens to be that in certain parts of the world, people are more openly racist than acting all discreet about it.

There's even a thread in the Canada forum discussing racism in Canada. And while you have some chiming claiming that there are no negative feelings towards any groups, you had others who stepped in and said 'no, certain groups are seen as being the cause for crime or are seen as job stealing immigrants.'

Downplaying racism doesn't solve the issue, but neither does harping on it.

And I do have friends from Europe who say racist beliefs are common. Whether it's acted upon is a different topic. And keep in mind that racism doesn't always imply just towards blacks. It still counts if it's towards Asians/SE Asians, Indians, Middle Easterners etc.
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Old 07-14-2014, 07:23 PM
 
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It's taboo to be racist in the USA, along with a handful of european countries like the UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and parts of Scandinavia. Of course, there are still racists in these places but they are usually ridiculed as backwards idiots or right wing fascists. In other european countries it seems like casual racist remarks are perfectly acceptable as a part of normal conversation. Portugal, Spain, Greece, Italy are like this. In my experience, Italians are the worst offenders. I had not heard stories like the ones upthread about racists in Germany. However, it is not totally surprising. Moderator cut: .

Last edited by Oldhag1; 07-14-2014 at 07:29 PM.. Reason: Please be careful not to bash/negatively stereotype members of certain countries.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
At the same time in Europe (or Italy for sure) you will never find a wall between two countries, you'll never have people mercilessly sent back to their country (all those children from Central America?), you'll never have so massive ghettos, you'll never have jails massively filled with a unique racial group like in the US.
The episodes Oldhag1 suffered are indeed shameful but he spoke about two countries (Germany and Italy) which together number 140 million, i.e. little less than half of the US) starting from two episodes.

Oh really. We do hear about how African immigrants are treated in Europe. We also hear of white supremacist and xenophobic groups having seats in parliament, despite the fact that, I some cases they have had a history of race based violence.

There are 11 million undocumented migrants living in the USA, many owning homes, and businesses. I just can't imagine that in Europe, where most are likely to be confined to sweeping the streets.

Blacks are 13% of the US population, and Hispanics 17%. When you adjust for the different demographics the jails of the UK and France are just as filled with non whites, even more so than in the USA. Indeed even a former PM of the UK ranted about the violence prone Afro Caribbean culture, this in a society where random violence and vandalism has long been a feature of its native white under class.

The ghettoes are France look quite fearsome and I don't think that the housing estates in the UK are great places to live either.

Now tell us in which continent to black immigrants do better, North America (USA and Canada) or Europe (inclusive of the UK)?

There are thousands of black immigrants from Europe living in the USA. Interested to find out how many blacks migrate to Europe. And spare us the pre civil rights movement of black American artists to France.

The USA is way more open to immigrants than is ANY country in Europe. We aren't under the "culturally deracinate yourself... or else" that most f Europe is under.

When Europe ELECTS their first non white head of state with immediate immigrant roots then Europeans can talk.

The USA certainly has its problems but so does Europe and indeed continental Europe often appears barbaric with goon squads randomly attacking non whites who are minding their own business.
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