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But, believing everyone should who moves to this country should learn the common language is not a racist idea.
And yet NO ONE has proven that Hispanics, or Chinese, to cite two who proudly speak their own languages in this country, refuse to speak English. They learn to speak English as fast as they can because this vastly enhances their employment possibilities. Clearly no one is going to learn Spanish to interact with them, so they must learn English.
An additional problem is that if they don't learn English then they become dependent on their kids when they encounter environments where no one speaks Spanish. Which is most places. Now imagine what happens when a teenager realizes how much power he/she has over their parents by being their only link to the outside world. Indeed adolescents are hard to discipline at the best of times, much less when they become so empowered.
So the issue isn't that Mexicans (because this is who this is really all about) refuse to speak English. Indeed it has been proved that most of them eventually develop some competency in speaking English, and that their kids become bi lingual, English dominant.
The issue is the paranoia which happens when a critical mass of people are able to maintain their own culture, to the point where it even begins to impact the larger culture. So salsa has now replaced ketchup. And Tex Mex food is now "American" food. And pinatas are now quite frequent at kids' parties.
Like some one said. Two generations ago it was "segregation now, segregation for ever", but now Spanish is the new whipping boy.
The difference is that those are relatively niche immigrant communities.
.)
So as I suspected the real issue isn't language. Its culture. Indeed the fear those who wants ran San Francisco, Loa Angeles, San Antonio, etc., might culturally take it back.
Because we don't have this paranoia in NYC despite the fact that Spanish is spoken frequently by at least 20% of the population. Indeed the fact that most Puerto Ricans in NYC are probably slightly more competent in Spanish than is the average NYer should indicate that over time Spanish becomes less important.
It's not bigoted or racist to expect native Spanish speakers to assimilate to English. This isn't just about them but they are the largest group refusing to do so. Skin color hasn't a thing to do with it. Many native Spanish speakers have very light skin. I don't have a problem with foreign languages including Spanish being spoken in ethnic "business" neighborhoods. In fact I would expect it.
But it IS bigoted to assume that Spanish speakers have not assimilated because they don't happen to be speaking English at the moment.
I have said before that I live in the Latino east side of Las Vegas. Roughly half of my neighbors are Latino. Nearly all of them speak English quite well. Although many of them won't speak English when they are faced with a sanctimonious "my-way-or-the-highway, why-don't-you-speak-American" güero. They speak English just fine. They just want to annoy such people for being bigots. This is a long-running joke that spans the Latino community. The sentiment is, "Sure, I could speak to you. But you're a waste of my time. You've already made up your mind about me. So [censored] you."
And the few who don't speak English? Who cares? They're not hurting anyone. It is not necessary to speak English to get ahead in this country. I have ancestors not too many generations back who never learned English. Bigots didn't give these ancestors any "learn English" crap because they were whiter than sour cream.
There are giant Polish and Russian communities in this country, where business signs are printed in cyrillic. I don't hear ANYONE complaining about "those damned Eastern Europeans" and their "godawful bakeries and pierogi." Why not? There is no difference at all between the immigrant family who speaks Polish and the immigrant family who speaks Spanish. Except for skin tone. Occam's Razor applies here.
When the Amish speak their version of German and refuse to assimilate, it's quaint and touristy. When Latinos actively TRY to assimilate, they're derided for not doing it fast enough. It's bigotry, plain and simple. Saying "I'm not a bigot, but these people should learn English and assimilate" IS bigotry. It is no different than "Segregation today. Segregation tomorrow. Segregation forever!"
Good luck finding anyone in the South who will admit to shouting that in the 1950s and 1960s. To hear them now, every single last one of them marched with MLK. None of them were on the other side shrieking about the endangered purity of the white race.
And yet NO ONE has proven that Hispanics, or Chinese, to cite two who proudly speak their own languages in this country, refuse to speak English. They learn to speak English as fast as they can because this vastly enhances their employment possibilities. Clearly no one is going to learn Spanish to interact with them, so they must learn English.
An additional problem is that if they don't learn English then they become dependent on their kids when they encounter environments where no one speaks Spanish. Which is most places. Now imagine what happens when a teenager realizes how much power he/she has over their parents by being their only link to the outside world. Indeed adolescents are hard to discipline at the best of times, much less when they become so empowered.
So the issue isn't that Mexicans (because this is who this is really all about) refuse to speak English. Indeed it has been proved that most of them eventually develop some competency in speaking English, and that their kids become bi lingual, English dominant.
The issue is the paranoia which happens when a critical mass of people are able to maintain their own culture, to the point where it even begins to impact the larger culture. So salsa has now replaced ketchup. And Tex Mex food is now "American" food. And pinatas are now quite frequent at kids' parties.
Like some one said. Two generations ago it was "segregation now, segregation for ever", but now Spanish is the new whipping boy.
I guess what I am hearing out in public is just my imagination then? I know that most native Spanish speakers are learning English but in public most prefer Spanish and that is the issue. Why would any country in the world want their national language diluted to the point of feeling like they are living in a foreign country out in mainstream? If there is any segregation going in it is by the Spanish speakers themselves. You have to consider that there are millions of Spanish speakers here illegally also. That isn't anything like the past.
But it IS bigoted to assume that Spanish speakers have not assimilated because they don't happen to be speaking English at the moment.
I have said before that I live in the Latino east side of Las Vegas. Roughly half of my neighbors are Latino. Nearly all of them speak English quite well. Although many of them won't speak English when they are faced with a sanctimonious "my-way-or-the-highway, why-don't-you-speak-American" güero. They speak English just fine. They just want to annoy such people for being bigots. This is a long-running joke that spans the Latino community. The sentiment is, "Sure, I could speak to you. But you're a waste of my time. You've already made up your mind about me. So [censored] you."
And the few who don't speak English? Who cares? They're not hurting anyone. It is not necessary to speak English to get ahead in this country. I have ancestors not too many generations back who never learned English. Bigots didn't give these ancestors any "learn English" crap because they were whiter than sour cream.
There are giant Polish and Russian communities in this country, where business signs are printed in cyrillic. I don't hear ANYONE complaining about "those damned Eastern Europeans" and their "godawful bakeries and pierogi." Why not? There is no difference at all between the immigrant family who speaks Polish and the immigrant family who speaks Spanish. Except for skin tone. Occam's Razor applies here.
When the Amish speak their version of German and refuse to assimilate, it's quaint and touristy. When Latinos actively TRY to assimilate, they're derided for not doing it fast enough. It's bigotry, plain and simple. Saying "I'm not a bigot, but these people should learn English and assimilate" IS bigotry. It is no different than "Segregation today. Segregation tomorrow. Segregation forever!"
Good luck finding anyone in the South who will admit to shouting that in the 1950s and 1960s. To hear them now, every single last one of them marched with MLK. None of them were on the other side shrieking about the endangered purity of the white race.
Please stop with the accusations of bigotry and skin tone! It's simply not true. Again, it isn't bigoted to expect Spanish speakers or anyone else to speak English out in mainstream when they know how to. It has nothing to do with skin tone either. I repeat, that many native Spanish speakers have light skin.
The non-Hispanic communities that you describe are very small compared to the Spanish speaking communities across our nation. However, if I lived in a state where you hear more of their languages than English I would feel the same way. There aren't entire several states where you hear those languages more than English so there is no comparison.
[mod]-[mod]
Last edited by Oldhag1; 08-22-2014 at 07:25 AM..
Reason: Flaming
I guess what I am hearing out in public is just my imagination then? I know that most native Spanish speakers are learning English but in public most prefer Spanish and that is the issue. Why would any country in the world want their national language diluted to the point of feeling like they are living in a foreign country out in mainstream? If there is any segregation going in it is by the Spanish speakers themselves. You have to consider that there are millions of Spanish speakers here illegally also. That isn't anything like the past.
In order for Spanish to become essential for Americans (ie, a person would be severely marginalized in society without it), it will have to become a language commonly used in media, commerce, industry, higher education, and politics across the nation.
For reasons already given, that is very much unlikely to happen in the US.
Yes, those who never learn English will definitely be self-segregated and thus will never be part of the common flow of media, commerce, industry, higher education, and politics. As has already been noted, English is the language that is becoming more and more essential around the world.
I'm not saying anyone should not speak Spanish. Being down here in Texas, I've started a program to bring my own rusty high school Spanish to a conversational level, but that's for convenience. I may never really speak it much, but I do want to understand the gist of what's being spoken around me and to read it better.
In order for Spanish to become essential for Americans (ie, a person would be severely marginalized in society without it), it will have to become a language commonly used in media, commerce, industry, higher education, and politics across the nation.
For reasons already given, that is very much unlikely to happen in the US.
Yes, those who never learn English will definitely be self-segregated and thus will never be part of the common flow of media, commerce, industry, higher education, and politics. As has already been noted, English is the language that is becoming more and more essential around the world.
I'm not saying anyone should not speak Spanish. Being down here in Texas, I've started a program to bring my own rusty high school Spanish to a conversational level, but that's for convenience. I may never really speak it much, but I do want to understand the gist of what's being spoken around me and to read it better.
It's quite possible that could occur, IMO. We already have several Spanish language programs on TV, industry is insisting that one be able to speak Spanish in order to get hired in many southwestern states and Miami. Some schools are already mandating Spanish to be included in their studies and some non-Hispanic politicians are learning Spanish to pander to the Spanish speaking community. I could see this accelerating although I certainly hope not. We don't need to become another Hispanic/Spanish speaking nation since there are already 23 of them on the Western Hemisphere. Is there something wrong with the USA and Canada being mostly English dominant rather than Spanish? I'm not suggesting those are your sentiments but those are the sentiments of a growing group in our country.
It's quite possible that could occur, IMO. We already have several Spanish language programs on TV, industry is insisting that one be able to speak Spanish in order to get hired in many southwestern states and Miami. Some schools are already mandating Spanish to be included in their studies and some non-Hispanic politicians are learning Spanish to pander to the Spanish speaking community. I could see this accelerating although I certainly hope not. We don't need to become another Hispanic/Spanish speaking nation since there are already 23 of them on the Western Hemisphere. Is there something wrong with the USA and Canada being mostly English dominant rather than Spanish? I'm not suggesting those are your sentiments but those are the sentiments of a growing group in our country.
Spanish is spoken 23 countries in the Western Hemisphere because of colonization. St Augustine was Pre-Jamestown. Spanish was here before "English" and it will probably be here long after whether you like it or not. "Pandering" is such a subjective word. Moderator cut: -
Last edited by Oldhag1; 08-22-2014 at 09:25 AM..
Reason: Focus on the topic and not other posters
Neither is German, Italian or Polish in some other parts of the country but that doesn't change the fact that English is our de facto national language. I don't see any employment ads demanding that one be able to speak those languages in order for a native English speaker to get a job in their own country though. If there is business being conducted in Spanish in many states then there most certainly is an assimilation problem and we all know that Spanish is becoming more prevalent because of the huge influx of illegal aliens from south of our border.
Spanish has been the most prevalent language in many places in the country for years. How can is be an "assimilation" problem if the Spanish speaking population predates the English speaking population? It's certainly not an assimilation problem for me as I speak Spanish. In most societies people who speak only one language are considered uneducated.
Spanish has been the most prevalent language in many places in the country for years. How can is be an "assimilation" problem if the Spanish speaking population predates the English speaking population? It's certainly not an assimilation problem for me as I speak Spanish. In most societies people who speak only one language are considered uneducated.
The point is that our national de facto language is English not Spanish. Doesn't matter what some societies think about bi-linguilism and we are supposed to stick to the topic of Spanish not bi-linguilsm per the mod's comments under this topic.
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