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Old 08-26-2014, 08:19 PM
 
2,818 posts, read 2,285,892 times
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I don't want this to be a us vs. them discussion (be it Europe vs. US or Asian vs. Hispanic immigrants).
But rather just a theoretical discussion on different models of social policy.

I'm torn on the balance between an open immigration policy and a welfare state. To some extent they are contrasting goals.

On net, welfare states transfer resources from wealthier (generally higher skilled/better connected) to poorer (less skilled/less connected people) individuals. Fair enough, this reduces social tension and ameliorates social ills.

However, given the educational/income gaps between rich and poor nations support for open immigration is also implicitly support for low skilled immigrants. Most low skilled immigrants are incredibly hard working and seeking to improve their life. Can't blame them, I support them in their effort to better there lives.

However, they also tend to be at the bottom of the skill/income distribution. This widens measured inequality within the society. Even if immigrants don't hurt native born workers, just by increasing the number of low skilled workers within an economy, measured inequality and poverty will both increase. Hence, the more low skilled immigration there is, the more inequality and relative poverty a society will have.

Hence, the more low skilled immigration a society has the more of a social safety net a society will need. These seem contrasting goals.

(In 2011, the poverty rate was 24.3% among foreign born non-citizens in the US and 14.4% among native born).
Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2011 - Income & Wealth - Newsroom - U.S. Census Bureau
Immigration and Inequality

Seems long term there are three sustainable models of immigration vs. welfare policies:
1) Open borders, low welfare style- permissive immigration policy,but also big income gaps and little of a social safety net. Immigrants are better off than in their home nations, but society must accept a high level of poverty by developed world standards. The native born poor also have little in the way of a social safety net.
2) Tight borders, generous welfare style- strict immigration restrictions, but a big social safety net for all. Immigration is tightly controlled, but low skilled/income individuals and their families are given lots of social supports.
3) Open immigration for high skilled, tighter immigration for the low skilled and a generous welfare state- immigration is very skill based. The immigrant population is regulated to ensure the overall skill distribution is not below that of the native born labor force. Very easy for college educated immigrants to come, more difficult for less than HS immigrants to come. A generous social safety net for all.

Perhaps, I am wrong about this. Anyone else have any thoughts on how to balance these objectives?
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:29 AM
 
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I support none of the above. We should only be allowing in immigrants with skills we need and where an American can't be found to do the same job for a fair wage. We also need to keep population growth in mind that is in keeping with our ability to supply jobs and resources to immigrants without hurting our own citizens. All this family reunification on our soil needs to be curbed also.

As for welfare only truly needy American families should be able to get temporary help. Birthright citizenship needs to be amended so that families with illegal alien parents can't tap into our welfare coffers to support those kids.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:41 PM
 
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Just to clarify, I meant welfare in the very general term of a social safety network for things like child tax brakes, education, healthcare, pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. Not necessarily, "welfare" in the narrow terms of TANF cash payments for the poor in the US.

I'm guessing you are probably opposed to those as well, but I just wanted to clarify.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:53 PM
 
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We should close the borders but allow the number of foreign workers we require.

Welfare should primarily be for short term assistance that comes with many strings.

The end.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdivola View Post
Just to clarify, I meant welfare in the very general term of a social safety network for things like child tax brakes, education, healthcare, pensions, unemployment insurance, etc. Not necessarily, "welfare" in the narrow terms of TANF cash payments for the poor in the US.

I'm guessing you are probably opposed to those as well, but I just wanted to clarify.
I said only for our truly needy American families whose parents are citizens of this country. So just where is the opposition to any of the things you mentioned? Unemployment insurance is not welfare and neither is education.
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Old 08-27-2014, 07:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
I said only for our truly needy American families whose parents are citizens of this country. So just where is the opposition to any of the things you mentioned? Unemployment insurance is not welfare and neither is education.
Ok, my bad. I just wanted to clarify that I meant welfare in the broader international sense of term.
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