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Old 09-07-2014, 06:53 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,538,170 times
Reputation: 3026

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
The reason that many/most of us do not share your optimism is because the America that become great that you speak of doesn't exist anymore.
I disagree. I still people out there making it with hard work. The American that you say does not exist anymore still exist because the enduring principles that founded this nation still exist in many people. You can either join the victim crowd of or not, your choice. How do you know that most of you do not share my optimism? I will not claim a claim either way. I will say that I believe you are exaggerating or brainwashed into it. I do not know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
In the last 30 years, the monied elite have stacked the deck so heavily in their favor that average honest Americans don't stand a chance and are doing well just to survive. .
Do you think that this problem exists since the last 30 years. Well, I suggest you read history books. Look at the same type comment you are making made by people pretty much from the founding of this nation and in other nations. Some of the is propaganda that many people buy into it to instill the victim mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
With few exceptions, individual wealth today is in directly inverse proportion to individual integrity.
How do you know that? because CNN, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. tell you that? I see many people around me working on the American dream every day. Here in El Paso I am proud when I see a family on a street corner selling Mexican style hot dogs with their kids playing around the moving kitchen parked at a parking lot of a small shopping center. How about the family outside a supper market going around the parking lot selling tamales. By the family I mean the parents and their children. My daughter works as a counselor and there is this lady that goes to offices carrying her luggage type carrier selling different types of packed snacks and lunch items at the offices. I was so impressed by her entrepreneurial skills that she even had her simple business card in case I need her to cater for a party. I am also impressed by a young man going to restaurants to see candy and chewing gum from a box he may had bought at a store. That is trying hard and trying to make it. Even if I do not need to buy anything from any of those people I do buy it because I am proud of them for trying to work hard and earn their honest living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Wealth today doesn't come from hard work.
One of my former bosses has built a decent landscape company with hard work. When he was a young boy he used to wait outside the baseball part to wait for any homerun ball to land at the parking lot so he could save them and sell them. There are many people that are building wealth right now from hard work. I see them around and I am proud of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
It comes from gaming a corrupt system that does not serve the people's interests. It comes from knowing how to steal from people, get away with it, and yet sleep at night..
So when was this country corruption less in our history? Do your research and look at simple newspaper cartoon history and you will find how the rich are portrayed well before the 30 years you are talking about. Your claims (cries) are not new in our history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Those of us who proudly lack those characteristics don't recognize the country we grew up in.
I do not know how old you are. I am 61 years old and I remember the 50s, 60s, and 70s to today. People are the same since the dawn of time. The bell curve applies the same all the time. There are the lazy, the in between, and the resourceful. In the group are the selfish the in between and the unselfish. You will always find those anywhere anytime.

However, in all fairness to you I do agree that in some areas our moral fabric has deteriorated. Do we have corrupt leaders? Yes we do. Who elects them? Us. You may say that big corporations put them in high places. Nothing new there also but I believe we the people as a whole do not do much is because we generally have a comfortable life so why take the time? We have what we deserve. Look how many times the average citizen does vote for the same guy that before was found to be corrupt. What do you expect then.

So my optimism is not because I am naïve. I simply am not one to whine about things. I do something about it, by either encouraging people to vote, volunteer to tutor young men and women to finish high school and beyond, help in poor neighborhoods to help people be more smart in spending their money. An also to instill not to get used to extend their hand so Uncle Sam give them all they want as Jesse Jackson and company make them feel.
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Old 09-07-2014, 06:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,538,170 times
Reputation: 3026
Quote:
Originally Posted by sade693 View Post
I think what care about most is getting the most out life that we can. Accumulation of wealth is just a necessary means to that end.
Makes sense. However, in all fairness to the negative types there are those that do see wealth as the end. Both types exist. There are two types of people as to how the see money and wealth. Also, there the types the envy those that make money so it feels good to demonize them. And yes I admit that there are those that label those that do not make much as lazy and that is just as narrow minded as the other group. Take care.
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Old 09-07-2014, 11:32 PM
 
28,107 posts, read 63,486,210 times
Reputation: 23225
Quote:
Originally Posted by believe007 View Post
Actually this is true...
I meet people from all over the world.
The people I've met- whether they're from England, Spain, Egypt, Australia, Ireland- wherever--
are always happier, more vibrant, more lively & much more passionate than Americans.
I get to talk w/ them & the fact is their lives are not pi$$ed away w/ their noses to the grindstones...
They travel, they're proud of where they come from & they enjoy life to the max.
And in the U.S. we have the incredible contrasts-- rich & poor.
The rich are able to enjoy the pleasures of life;
working class, not as much.
The poor even have it better than the working class these days-
w/ all the freebies & handouts they're getting...
So yes I agree- Americans are overworked (the working, middle class only.)
I'd love to start over in another country, lol

I did notice this from my time working in Europe... also, from visits my European friends made to the States.

The biggest difference I found is that my Euro friends tend not to save much... there is no one telling them to save for old age or a rainy day... the exact opposite of here.

Another thing amongst the ones I know is they tend not to buy, sell and move like we do... many lived in homes or property that had been in the family for generations... property taxes were very low and never a consideration...

The taxes are high on wages and when buying... many turn down extra hours because they say it all goes to taxes...

They also have much more free time... no such thing as running down to the hardware store or shopping on a Sunday... even for groceries... at least when I lived in Austria... it was a much slower pace of life and everyone already knew how they would be spending their 5 to 6 weeks of holiday...

On the other hand... I work with people born in Cambodia and Vietnam... they have a different story and embrace America's economic opportunities...

Guess it all depends on one's perspective...
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Old 09-07-2014, 11:42 PM
 
Location: SC
2,966 posts, read 5,197,125 times
Reputation: 6925
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoopLV View Post
OK, I'll debate this -- Americans work longer hours and more days than most other countries. They take less vacations and pay more for them (through the lack of paid vacation time that is normal elsewhere). They pay for things that other countries get for free -- education and healthcare are the two biggest, but others come to mind.

But dwarfing all of that, Americans foot the bill for the world's largest military, which exceeds the expenditures of the next-highest 13 nations combined.

So, yes, OF COURSE Americans are more focused on career and income -- we're FORCED to do so.



So I have a solution -- let the rest of the nations of the Earth take care of their own problems for a change. And then we can spend my tax money on something more useful, like schools, roads, ports and bridges. Maybe we could finally get decent internet. Or some vacation time, better schools and health care.
That is never going to happen.

Our gov't has been taken over by business men and corporations with a vested interest in manipulating the world economy to line their own pockets and boost their own kick backs and investments in the global marketplace.

In other words, Americans are pretty much screwed, being born onto soil where they are no more than pawns for these corrupt politicians. Our country is their commercial enterprise, we are just their pawns and indentured tax slaves.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:07 AM
 
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho
3,007 posts, read 6,267,150 times
Reputation: 3310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco Barbosa View Post
Americans are conditioned to be single-minded about the purpose of life, which is to make money.
Single-minded Americans focused only on making money fit that statement. the other 99.9% do not. Most Americans, however, are raised to understand that ivory towers and sheltered fantasies are for fools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco Barbosa View Post
Americans are taught that life and everything is all business.
Wrong and wrong. We are taught not to be morons, to approach life with maximum pragmatism and practicality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco Barbosa View Post
A workaholic lifestyle is considered to be the norm that one strives for. Such a narrow focus on life suppresses creativity and imagination, and makes life dull as well.
How old are you? Where on earth so you live? Have you ever lived in India? China? Korea? Hong Kong? Singapore? Taiwan? There, you will find that no one wants to work as hard as they do, but that to think the opposite, that hard work is unnecessary, would be financial suicide...which means family impoverishment. Americans enjoy working hard and playing hard ...it is very much "work to live."

Were work to be the sole focus of life, then yes, it would most certainly suppress creativity and imagination and make life dull as well. However, none of these characterize the US. Far from it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco Barbosa View Post
In America, the pursuit of money has REPLACED the human soul.
Again, I have to wonder about that rock you live under.

WE do not pursue money.

I would say, however, that the modern global economy has made had an impact on lifestyles throughout the globe. One trend does seem to be without soul. but the us has no special claim. Go to Madrid -- the people work like maniacs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocco Barbosa View Post
Thus the eyes of Americans look empty and plastic, not soulful or passionate. Their eyes often look depressed too, as though they've been overworked and been over consuming too much with nothing else to live for.
Yikes, where are you? And how long have you been supported by your family/parents money?

No, compai, to costs to live in a flat in any major country is increasing tremendously whether one is renting or buying. But in both respects, it is much cheaper to live in the US than in Europe or Asia.

I will leave you with three thoughts.

One, Americans separate from their parents earlier and are expected to create a life of their own--house, family, retirement. We do not tend to pool resources together.

Two, we have stricter taxes on inheritance. Unless in many parts of Europe, where a family compound is passed down from generation to generation, we usually dispose of the family home and start a new. This makes life a tougher going for all right from age 16, when many get their first paycheck.

Three, as a general rule, we do not like seeing people on the public dole and think highly of government-run lives or welfare. This means a general sense that each should fend for themselves.

Each may then give the impression that money and hardwork is all we think of. But it is freedom from both that really obsesses us.

S.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:10 AM
 
Location: Sunrise
10,865 posts, read 16,948,226 times
Reputation: 9084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmachina View Post
In other words, Americans are pretty much screwed, being born onto soil where they are no more than pawns for these corrupt politicians. Our country is their commercial enterprise, we are just their pawns and indentured tax slaves.
It has been my experience that people who figure this out at a young enough age are able to rise above debt-slavery vicious circle. The rest think retail therapy is a "thing."
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Old 09-08-2014, 04:51 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,660,433 times
Reputation: 13891
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I disagree. I still people out there making it with hard work. The American that you say does not exist anymore still exist because the enduring principles that founded this nation still exist in many people. You can either join the victim crowd of or not, your choice. How do you know that most of you do not share my optimism? I will not claim a claim either way. I will say that I believe you are exaggerating or brainwashed into it. I do not know.


Do you think that this problem exists since the last 30 years. Well, I suggest you read history books. Look at the same type comment you are making made by people pretty much from the founding of this nation and in other nations. Some of the is propaganda that many people buy into it to instill the victim mentality.


How do you know that? because CNN, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc. tell you that? I see many people around me working on the American dream every day. Here in El Paso I am proud when I see a family on a street corner selling Mexican style hot dogs with their kids playing around the moving kitchen parked at a parking lot of a small shopping center. How about the family outside a supper market going around the parking lot selling tamales. By the family I mean the parents and their children. My daughter works as a counselor and there is this lady that goes to offices carrying her luggage type carrier selling different types of packed snacks and lunch items at the offices. I was so impressed by her entrepreneurial skills that she even had her simple business card in case I need her to cater for a party. I am also impressed by a young man going to restaurants to see candy and chewing gum from a box he may had bought at a store. That is trying hard and trying to make it. Even if I do not need to buy anything from any of those people I do buy it because I am proud of them for trying to work hard and earn their honest living.


One of my former bosses has built a decent landscape company with hard work. When he was a young boy he used to wait outside the baseball part to wait for any homerun ball to land at the parking lot so he could save them and sell them. There are many people that are building wealth right now from hard work. I see them around and I am proud of them.


So when was this country corruption less in our history? Do your research and look at simple newspaper cartoon history and you will find how the rich are portrayed well before the 30 years you are talking about. Your claims (cries) are not new in our history.


I do not know how old you are. I am 61 years old and I remember the 50s, 60s, and 70s to today. People are the same since the dawn of time. The bell curve applies the same all the time. There are the lazy, the in between, and the resourceful. In the group are the selfish the in between and the unselfish. You will always find those anywhere anytime.

However, in all fairness to you I do agree that in some areas our moral fabric has deteriorated. Do we have corrupt leaders? Yes we do. Who elects them? Us. You may say that big corporations put them in high places. Nothing new there also but I believe we the people as a whole do not do much is because we generally have a comfortable life so why take the time? We have what we deserve. Look how many times the average citizen does vote for the same guy that before was found to be corrupt. What do you expect then.

So my optimism is not because I am naïve. I simply am not one to whine about things. I do something about it, by either encouraging people to vote, volunteer to tutor young men and women to finish high school and beyond, help in poor neighborhoods to help people be more smart in spending their money. An also to instill not to get used to extend their hand so Uncle Sam give them all they want as Jesse Jackson and company make them feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandpointian View Post
Single-minded Americans focused only on making money fit that statement. the other 99.9% do not. Most Americans, however, are raised to understand that ivory towers and sheltered fantasies are for fools.


Wrong and wrong. We are taught not to be morons, to approach life with maximum pragmatism and practicality.



How old are you? Where on earth so you live? Have you ever lived in India? China? Korea? Hong Kong? Singapore? Taiwan? There, you will find that no one wants to work as hard as they do, but that to think the opposite, that hard work is unnecessary, would be financial suicide...which means family impoverishment. Americans enjoy working hard and playing hard ...it is very much "work to live."

Were work to be the sole focus of life, then yes, it would most certainly suppress creativity and imagination and make life dull as well. However, none of these characterize the US. Far from it.




Again, I have to wonder about that rock you live under.

WE do not pursue money.

I would say, however, that the modern global economy has made had an impact on lifestyles throughout the globe. One trend does seem to be without soul. but the us has no special claim. Go to Madrid -- the people work like maniacs.



Yikes, where are you? And how long have you been supported by your family/parents money?

No, compai, to costs to live in a flat in any major country is increasing tremendously whether one is renting or buying. But in both respects, it is much cheaper to live in the US than in Europe or Asia.

I will leave you with three thoughts.

One, Americans separate from their parents earlier and are expected to create a life of their own--house, family, retirement. We do not tend to pool resources together.

Two, we have stricter taxes on inheritance. Unless in many parts of Europe, where a family compound is passed down from generation to generation, we usually dispose of the family home and start a new. This makes life a tougher going for all right from age 16, when many get their first paycheck.

Three, as a general rule, we do not like seeing people on the public dole and think highly of government-run lives or welfare. This means a general sense that each should fend for themselves.

Each may then give the impression that money and hardwork is all we think of. But it is freedom from both that really obsesses us.

S.
Neither of these posts belong in the Great Debates forum as they both completely miss the OP's point and, because of the weakness of substance in their tangential ramblings, they are both laced with personal insult.

I'm seeing more and more intelligent and substantial OPs trampled upon by this kind of offensive irrelevance and it is not a good trend.
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Old 09-08-2014, 05:04 AM
 
20,948 posts, read 18,999,727 times
Reputation: 10270
No. It's having the freedom to "pursue happiness".

It's the freedom to provide the best you can for yourself and your family and try to provide a comfortable retirement.
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:43 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,494 posts, read 4,538,170 times
Reputation: 3026
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
Neither of these posts belong in the Great Debates forum as they both completely miss the OP's point and, because of the weakness of substance in their tangential ramblings, they are both laced with personal insult.

I'm seeing more and more intelligent and substantial OPs trampled upon by this kind of offensive irrelevance and it is not a good trend.

Don't confuse directness with insult. I did not call anyone dumb, lazy, stupid, etc. I suppose that in some ways we have chance too much into a touchy feely society.

The OP put the topic. I wondered the true motive. It is something similar when someone may quote someone and say "It is not me, that is what he said". Why say it then? What is the real motive? To express he true feelings use by using someone else's words? I did wondered and expressed that. However, I praise you for defending the OP even though he is a grown up to do so.
Take a close look at the negative language the OP posted for us to read then he asked don't attack me? Why did he say that? Is it because he realized people would react negatively? It looks like he knew there would be negative reactions from some. In my case I didn't get upset but I did reply to give another side of the issue and give it balance and not jump on the "How bad America is bandwagon". Did that affect you for you to confuse directness with insulting? Take care.

Last edited by elamigo; 09-08-2014 at 08:52 AM..
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,103 posts, read 5,403,485 times
Reputation: 10105
Look, America was founded on the principle of Pursuit of Happiness. Happiness costs money though, and money has to be earned. Americans actually wouldn't have to work AS hard if they were just better at managing their personal finances, but that's a different topic. Americans don't believe that life is about making money, we just know that entertainment and a good quality of life comes with a price. Id rather work 50 hours a week and go home to my big, clean, house with running water and electricity than to work 20 hours a week and live in a log cabin. However in America, both are options.
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