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Old 12-10-2014, 11:48 AM
 
2 posts, read 3,649 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
That's exactly what nature means.



It occurs naturally throughout the animal kingdom.



Ever hear of safe sex or even sex?? I constantly swap fluid with my gf. Btw, hm ostt 's engage in anal and oral sex as well, so I'm not sure what you are trying to say.



You're contradicting yourself here. If men have always lusted My pointpoint fter men then that is not a perversion of nature.



Sounds like a bigoted religious argument to me. If what you say is true, that we create gays (and it isn't), then there wouldn't be any cases of homosexuality dating back 100's of years.

No bigoted religious finatic here. Only a Lover of Life. The process of Creation is the most sacred pertaining to Mankind. It's our gift, turned curse. The orgasm was a sacred thing. Now, as with most things, Creationism has been perversed. You see, all good things of Earth come from one thing, Life. It's up to us to protect it, not to destroy It.
The fact is we are all part of a society that is not in harmony with the Universal Truth, Universal Order, or Divine Love. We're in a strange kind of twilight we have created for ourselves through the constant emphasis upon selfishness and carnal desires.
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:18 PM
 
2,303 posts, read 2,248,297 times
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I'm a bit confused by the hypocrisy of the religious side here.

On one hand "homosexuality is not natural" except male animals do have sex with males so it's technically natural if you consider that to mean happening in nature. You then get the follow up "humans aren't animals" so therefore not part of nature.

It almost seems like from these arguments, animals having gay sex are natural and therefore homosexuals are more natural than the rest of humanity who isn't part of nature.
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Old 12-10-2014, 01:42 PM
 
210 posts, read 110,315 times
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ThinkingMan begins the concept - but I'll carry it a smidge further. No person in their right mind would want to grow up gay or lesbian. Scientifically, there are studies that lend themselves to this. If needed, I can look for them. But I'm sure environmental factors play into this is person-dependent but quite honestly, I don't know what the environment factors would be other than how one's family interacts.

I'm a senior now. My partner and I have been together 22.5 years. When I worked for my first corporation, I was part of a group to bring in DP benefits. We did probably because the company
found it cost-effective and saw that marketing this would bring in more customers. I was privy to that down the road in a Fortune 500 - we saw the marketing data collected.

The old and antiquated excuse that we can't propagate is just that. If you use that argument, you toss male/female infertile relationships down the drain. If you use the argument that "we" have an agenda, I'd like to know what it is (other than hogwash).

To the OP, we may never know what causes it but there are theories. But there's nothing wrong with me as a person and the fact that I appear to have gained favor from a Southern Methodist guy (our age) in our neighborhood (his wife - Southern Baptist) wanted me to explore his "issues." We talked. I listened and he learned.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:10 PM
 
210 posts, read 110,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit View Post
I consider it an anomaly only because of its rarity. Now, if homosexuals made up a majority of the population, I would consider heterosexuality an anomaly.

As for the evolutionary aspect, the question still stands: has the probability of homosexuality increased due to evolution or environmental factors and what are those factors. However, I don't want to threadjack. This topic has been discussed on other forums and it basically comes to a standstill between those who think the percentage of homosexuals has been constant throughout human history and those that believe that the rate has increased in recent years.

I have a hard time believing there is some built-in evolutionary mechanism that increases the rate of homosexuality in order to reduce population. Not saying it isn't possible, but there are many more probable reasons, IMO. Those being: chemical influences on the hormonal balance in pregnant mothers and/or fetuses, post-birth influences on hormonal balance, cultural influences that impose masculine and feminine labels on certain personalities and behaviors even though those personalities and behaviors are completely acceptable for members of that sex, etc.
So, how many gays and lesbians are there versus how many heterosexuals are there? Huh? You don't know? I may be living next door to you and you would not know to include either me or my partner. The argument (I understand it's a bad guessing game out there going on) cannot be proven. The argument from a corporate view is also unknown. The powers that be thought there would be an onslaught of "us" asking for DP benefits if they offered them. The reality in at least two corporations where I fought for DP benefits was the number of those who came forward was really, really low. Doesn't mean we exist in small numbers but it does mean counts are inaccurate.

I started thinking that I was attracted to women/girls when I was in early elementary school. Since I was born in the 50s, I had no clue what this meant (nothing to me at the time). A guy I thought was cute back then said he was tired of the girls hitting on him because he knew who he was. The area where I was a kid was rural and chemicals (like what's in our food and homes now) was rare.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:01 PM
 
13,675 posts, read 13,485,460 times
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An anomaly would be something that was very rare. Being gay isn't really that rare.

My opinion is that gayness fits perfectly with evolutionary theory as long as you don't assume that survival of the fittest applies to the individual's genes.

In ancient society people were old in their 20s. Life spans were considerably shorter. Parents stood a good chance of not living long enough to raise their children into independence.

Consider that statistically speaking, gay people tend to be younger siblings. Not uniformly true, but statistically true. Having a close surviving relative who was unlikely to reproduce on their own meant that orphaned children would have another adult who could prioritize their care. Even if they were not orphaned, it would still be another adult looking out for the children's welfare, as in a wolf pack, where other pack members support the offspring of the mating dominant pair.

Further, consider also the stereotype that gays are "creative" - many stereotypes have some truth to them. An adult who was unlikely to reproduce was free to innovate, invent and create rather than having to devote themselves to raising children. From a Darwinist perspective, a society that had a genetic tendency to produce some gay members would have had an edge over a society that did not have any gay members.
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:16 PM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
3,351 posts, read 5,940,921 times
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Studies have been done showing that among some identical twins, one is gay and one straight. Now, if homosexuality were only biological in nature, how could that be, when you're dealing with two genetically identical people? I'm not saying there isn't a biological component, but I do think many people are too quick to jump to that conclusion. It could be a combination of nature and nurture. Or maybe sexual preference isn't as hardwired as we think it is. Most of us have clear preferences one way or another, but there are obviously bisexuals, as well as many people who move from straight to gay relationships, and vice versa. Perhaps sexuality is more fluid for humans than we give it credit for sometimes.

As for homosexuality in nature, I don't think it can be compared to human activity. When my dog humps my leg, I doubt it ever goes through his mind that he's being "gay." He's just horny and sees something to hump.

So is being gay an anomaly? If there is a biological component, I'd say so, in the same way that, say, being an albino is an anomaly. Should people be discriminated against for it? Absolutely not. As long as any relationship is consensual and involves grown adults, who really cares?

As for someone else's claim that humans aren't mammals or animals ... you might want to read a biology book.

Last edited by Adrian71; 12-10-2014 at 04:32 PM..
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:19 PM
 
13,675 posts, read 13,485,460 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian71 View Post
Studies have been done showing that among some identical twins, one is gay and one straight. Now, if homosexuality were only biological in nature, how could that be, when you're dealing with two genetically identical people? I'm not saying there isn't a biological component, but I do think many people are too quick to jump to that conclusion. It could be a combination of nature and nurture. Or maybe sexual preference isn't as hardwired as we think it is. Most of us have clear preferences one way or another, but there are obviously bisexuals, as well as many people who move from straight to gay relationships, and vice versa. Perhaps sexuality is more fluid for humans than we give it credit for sometimes.

As for homosexuality in nature, I don't think it can be compared to human activity. When my dog humps my leg, I doubt it ever goes through his mind that he's being "gay." He's just horny and sees something to hump.

So is being gay an anomaly? If there is a biological component, I'd say so, in the same way that, say, being an albino is an anomaly. Should people be discriminated against for it? Absolutely not. As long as any relationship is consensual and involves grown adults, who really cares?

As for someone else's claim that humans aren't mammals or animals ... you might want to read a biology book.
There is a respected theory that relates to the level of androgen in the mother's womb. Even identical twins are not actually IDENTICAL. They don't get freckles in the exact same places and one might be taller than the other. Different factors affect how a gene is expressed. The fact is that if one identical twin is gay, the other has a 50 percent probability of being gay. Both twins may not respond to the androgen in the mother's womb in the same way.
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:35 PM
 
Location: New Orleans, La. USA
5,919 posts, read 2,819,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
I don't have anything against gay people. In fact, i'll go as far as saying that even if my own son came and told me he was gay, i would be very accepting and understanding, knowing that being gay is not a choice (usually) and is part of nature and occurs in many other species on earth as well as us mammals.

That said, i've always thought of being gay as an anomaly, given that it is (at least appears so on the surface) against the evolutionary process; as in, being gay (again, at least it appears so on the surface) does not contribute to the evolution of the specie.

Is this view valid in your opinion? why so? why not?
Being gay does not contribute to the evolution of a species, but it contributes to the survival of a species.

"For example, the Laysan albatross shows that female-female pairing can increase fitness by taking advantage of the excess of females and shortage of males in the population and provide superior care for offspring. Moreover, same-sex pairing in many species actually alleviates the likelihood of divorce and curtails the pressure on the opposite sex by allowing members to exhibit more flexibility to form partnerships, which in turn strengthens social bonds and reduces competition."

"Currently, homosexual behavior has been documented in over 450 different animal species worldwide."
Yale Scientific Magazine Do Animals Exhibit Homosexuality?


"A common assumption is that homosexuality means not having children, but this is not necessarily true, especially in cultures other than our own. Until it became acceptable for same-sex couples to live together in western countries, many homosexual people had partners of the opposite sex. In some traditional societies, various forms of non-exclusive homosexuality were common."

"Among animals, homosexual behaviour is usually non-exclusive. For instance, in some populations of Japanese macaques, females prefer female sexual partners to male ones but still mate with males - they are bisexual, in other words."

"It has also been suggested that homosexuality boosts individuals' reproductive success, albeit indirectly. For instance, same-sex partners might have a better chance of rising to the top of social hierarchies and getting access to the opposite sex."

"Another possibility is that homosexuality evolves and persists because it benefits groups or relatives, rather than individuals. In bonobos, homosexual behaviour might have benefits at a group level by promoting social cohesion."
Evolution myths: Natural selection cannot explain homosexuality - life - 16 April 2008 - New Scientist


And in humans homosexuality may help (all) humans bond.
Homosexuality may help us bond | UoP News
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: College Hill
2,903 posts, read 2,766,179 times
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God doesn't make mistakes. Hence, gayness is perfectly normal in God's eye and should be considered part of God's plan in the hearts of mankind.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 12-10-2014 at 06:00 PM.. Reason: Removed color font
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:32 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,832,318 times
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To say though, that homosexuality exists nature (as in animals other than humans) goes a bit far. While some animals exhibit certain behaviors, please, if you believe that other animals have anything more than very limited behavior, explain how you know what the animals are thinking?

That is made up science. Where are all the same sex pairs of animals with young? Where are all the same sex animals that remain as pairs through their lives?

The entire concept of other animals being homosexual is pulled out of thin air. If the very limited behavior exhibited by other animals is homosexuality, then by golly, just look at how many homosexuals are in prisons. All those murders and rapists and other violent offenders are homosexuals?

What does that rather scary indictment say of the homosexual community?
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