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So what is your point, really? Do you simply want to rely on the Darwinian natural selection and justify the various fates of people?
I will simply state this: a society is noble when it takes care of its weakest members.
:
I believe I stated my view in a previous post:
"The vast majority of human beings, regardless of ethnicity or origins, can find some niche from which they're able to make their way in the world at a respectable pace, and the few who can't can be protected by the "safety net" -- if the bureaucratic empire-builders and seekers of power don't overextend it."
And I don't see how it could be expressed in a less-aggressive manner.
Goody Two-Shoes sermons, and the few exceptions like Jobs or Bezos (Scotch-Irish extraction, but an influential Latino stepfather) aside, very few of us find our place in the system, or get very far, without surrendering to it. Why do some people have to sow the seeds of supposed race and class resentment as an excuse?
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 03-22-2015 at 10:09 PM..
Goody Two-Shoes sermons, and the few exceptions like Jobs or Bezos (Scotch-Irish ethnicity, but an influential Latino stepfather) aside, very few of us find our place in the system without surrendering to it. Why do some people have to sow the seeds of supposed race and class resentment as an excuse?
Why is stating on obvious fact that, being male and being white brings advantages less available to those who are not, an expression of racial resentment?
Being rich brings advantages that being poor doesn't. Is this an expression of class resentment? Oh well you might say yes, but will not be able to deny this fact.
It is still easier to be a man than it is to be a woman. Is this gender resentment?
A kid growing up in a home with educated parents has huge advantages over one who isn't. Is this resentment against the educated?
Tall and good looking people usually do better than those who aren't. Is this "lookist" resentment?
No these are just facts.
This is a country by and large owned by white men and by and large run by white men. Given that most humans tend to accept those who are most like them then it becomes easier for a white man to penetrate these networks than it is for non white men (especially blacks who still attract discomfort from many whites) or women.
Does this mean that it is impossible for these others to progress? No!
Does this mean that not being white and/or male cannot be offset by other advantages which a particular non white male or a female might have? Clearly yes as the Obama daughters will clearly have a much easier life than most white men.
But this doesn't detract from the fact that being a white man, all other things being equal, does increase one's life chances. Not an expression of racial resentment. Just an expression of FACT.
Folks who have a problem with this need to stop equating this with an assertion that they exhibit overt racist attitudes to others. Once people stop equating claims of white privilege (much of it due to PAST racism) with claims of white racism then maybe there can be more intelligent discussion on this topic.
My main point was to attempt to send the message that racism is often institutional, and usually unintentional.
I do not think that most whites in 2015 go out of their way to be racist, but that doesn't mean that there might not be sub conscious bias, or even the fact that society might not be racist in its intent, but the results might still lead to disparities for reasons other than personal dysfunction.
If people stopped taking any discussion about this topic as a personal indictment of their attitudes about race then maybe conversation will occur that will lead people taking conscious steps to reduce "underserved" privilege, what ever it might be.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 03-23-2015 at 12:46 AM..
Reason: Removed deleted quote
My main point was to attempt to send the message that racism is often institutional, and usually unintentional.
I do not think that most whites in 2015 go out of their way to be racist, but that doesn't mean that there might not be sub conscious bias, or even the fact that society might not be racist in its intent, but the results might still lead to disparities for reasons other than personal dysfunction.
If people stopped taking any discussion about this topic as a personal indictment of their attitudes about race then maybe conversation will occur that will lead people taking conscious steps to reduce "underserved" privilege, what ever it might be.
The "sub conscious bias" you speak of would just be intelligent people playing the percentages. Regardless of color or race or gender, there are certain "feelings" we get that help us go into survival mode....for example, if a person is working a convenience store or gas station at 2am, each person who enters the store poses a "risk" and the person working there will size up the situation and determine if they should be watching the customer more carefully. Will they always be right? No, but they're "handicapping the situation" just like a race horse handicapper might handicap a horse race. Does that make them a racist? Because lets face it, every one of us (if we were the attendant on duty) would "judge" that person who walked into the store at 2am. We would treat customers equally outwardly, but inwardly, in our own minds, we wouldn't be treating each situation the exactly the same.
Why is stating on obvious fact that, being male and being white brings advantages less available to those who are not, an expression of racial resentment?
Because number one, people are generalizing and number two, it is leading to something else. Not all whites are wealthy, have privilege, etc. You know it and so do I. And this gives the opening then to start disenfranchising and lambasting whites (Europeans). We have all-black colleges, foundations, etc. If the same were for whites, you'd be throwing out the racism card. Nope. Some people can't leave yesterday alone in terms of trying to agitate. You could give them what they ask for on a silver platter and they would still want more.
Being rich brings advantages that being poor doesn't. Is this an expression of class resentment? Oh well you might say yes, but will not be able to deny this fact.
True. Being wealthy CAN be an advantage. BUT all wealthy people are NOT white and all white people AREN'T wealthy. People are just using that tack to attack white/European people and try to make them feel "white guilt". That in itself, to put it in your own terms, is racist. But there again, according to some "you can't be guilty of racism against whites".
It is still easier to be a man than it is to be a woman. Is this gender resentment? A kid growing up in a home with educated parents has huge advantages over one who isn't. Is this resentment against the educated?
Tall and good looking people usually do better than those who aren't. Is this "lookist" resentment?
Don't know if it is easier being a man than a woman. Have never been a woman. My wife may be able to answer that for you. My question is, "What is your point"? No, it is NOT always easy being "white" and male as you claim. Especially in our society today and the above expression by others is a prime example. Like all white people have some inherent "sin" built into them. Guilt by skin color. Again as you term it, racist. Yes ALL white people are direct descendants of southern plantation slave owners and therefore are guilty as charged. Right!! And then there are some in society that LOVE to keep the pot stirred, ethnic group against ethnic group, sex against sex, keep disharmony in the community. Keep tearing open old wound scars. Make the different classes fight with each other. Keep the revolution going!!
Folks who have a problem with this need to stop equating this with an assertion that they exhibit overt racist attitudes to others. Once people stop equating claims of white privilege (much of it due to PAST racism) with claims of white racism then maybe there can be more intelligent discussion on this topic.
HOW ABOUT LEAVING PAST CLAIMS OF RACISM WHERE THEY BELONG.... IN THE PAST!!!!
Why is stating on obvious fact that, being male and being white brings advantages less available to those who are not, an expression of racial resentment?
Because number one, people are generalizing and number two, it is leading to something else. Not all whites are wealthy, have privilege, etc. You know it and so do I. And this gives the opening then to start disenfranchising and lambasting whites (Europeans). We have all-black colleges, foundations, etc. If the same were for whites, you'd be throwing out the racism card. Nope. Some people can't leave yesterday alone in terms of trying to agitate. You could give them what they ask for on a silver platter and they would still want more.
Being rich brings advantages that being poor doesn't. Is this an expression of class resentment? Oh well you might say yes, but will not be able to deny this fact.
True. Being wealthy CAN be an advantage. BUT all wealthy people are NOT white and all white people AREN'T wealthy. People are just using that tack to attack white/European people and try to make them feel "white guilt". That in itself, to put it in your own terms, is racist. But there again, according to some "you can't be guilty of racism against whites".
It is still easier to be a man than it is to be a woman. Is this gender resentment? A kid growing up in a home with educated parents has huge advantages over one who isn't. Is this resentment against the educated?
Tall and good looking people usually do better than those who aren't. Is this "lookist" resentment?
Don't know if it is easier being a man than a woman. Have never been a woman. My wife may be able to answer that for you. My question is, "What is your point"? No, it is NOT always easy being "white" and male as you claim. Especially in our society today and the above expression by others is a prime example. Like all white people have some inherent "sin" built into them. Guilt by skin color. Again as you term it, racist. Yes ALL white people are direct descendants of southern plantation slave owners and therefore are guilty as charged. Right!! And then there are some in society that LOVE to keep the pot stirred, ethnic group against ethnic group, sex against sex, keep disharmony in the community. Keep tearing open old wound scars. Make the different classes fight with each other. Keep the revolution going!!
Folks who have a problem with this need to stop equating this with an assertion that they exhibit overt racist attitudes to others. Once people stop equating claims of white privilege (much of it due to PAST racism) with claims of white racism then maybe there can be more intelligent discussion on this topic.
HOW ABOUT LEAVING PAST CLAIMS OF RACISM WHERE THEY BELONG.... IN THE PAST!!!!
All you seem to have accomplished is adding qualifiers to the debate. Yes, not all white people are racist. Yes not all white people are privileged. Yes it's not always easy being White.
But that doesn't mean invalidate the fact that, MOST of the time, (not always), straight White males have the most opportunity and the least prejudices acting against them.
The "sub conscious bias" you speak of would just be intelligent people playing the percentages. Regardless of color or race or gender, there are certain "feelings"..
So when a black man in a suit shows up to an interview, do you get this feeling of 2 AM and him and his buddies are out to rob you? Is this the only context in which you interact with black men?
Because when we talk about privilege we are usually talking about access to the types of social networks which help improve our access to opportunity. Not some random encounter on the street.
The fact that this is the imagery which comes to mind when you think of black males just shows how isolated you are from them, to the point where this is your reflexive reaction.
Hence your subconscious bias will lead to have a preference for people like yourself, unless this black person stands out. Its like the old saying "have to be twice as good to get half as far".
So you will be less likely to hire/promote/do business with a black male as they incite certain subconscious discomfort. Of course the rational part of you will lead you to deny this, but clearly at a subconscious level you revealed what you think.
So when a black man in a suit shows up to an interview, do you get this feeling of 2 AM and him and his buddies are out to rob you? Is this the only context in which you interact with black men?
Because when we talk about privilege we are usually talking about access to the types of social networks which help improve our access to opportunity. Not some random encounter on the street.
The fact that this is the imagery which comes to mind when you think of black males just shows how isolated you are from them, to the point where this is your reflexive reaction.
Hence your subconscious bias will lead to have a preference for people like yourself, unless this black person stands out. Its like the old saying "have to be twice as good to get half as far".
So you will be less likely to hire/promote/do business with a black male as they incite certain subconscious discomfort. Of course the rational part of you will lead you to deny this, but clearly at a subconscious level you revealed what you think.
I don't recall specifically talking about blacks in my post, so, is there a question you have about my post or are you asking something different about the African American race specifically?
All you seem to have accomplished is adding qualifiers to the debate. Yes, not all white people are racist. Yes not all white people are privileged. Yes it's not always easy being White.
But that doesn't mean invalidate the fact that, MOST of the time, (not always), straight White males have the most opportunity and the least prejudices acting against them.
I was quite clear in outlining the various types of privileges which exist. I was also clear in suggesting that some non whites males and some females benefit from other privileges which offset the fact that they aren't white men.
So the rant from the poster to which you are responding merely shows dishonesty and a refusal to deal with the facts. Indeed I SPECIFICALLY stated that white privilege isn't necessarily an indicator of CONSCIOUS white racism.
FACT. All other facts being equal, a white male (straight or straight appearing) has more access to opportunity than others. Why? Because in the USA the gate keepers of opportunity almost always exist within an environment dominated at the top by white men. People socially interact with people like themselves. So clearly those who are most like those who are dominant will have more access to them. Those at the top transmit their values to those beneath them.
If folks want to have a melt down over that then it is up to them. But they will have a hard time telling me that two boys, one black and one white, both with parents who are blue collar, have exactly the same access, all other factors held constant.
In fact the confusion arrives because white men have to compete with other white men to advance. Not all white men have equal access to privilege (I outlined the many different forms of privilege before). So some white men have a tough time competing.
The fact remains that, when compared to females, or to non white men, all other factors held constant, they have more access because this is a white dominated society and all must operate within the contexts that this creates...In fact it is known that even non whites and women sometimes exhibit subconscious bias towards white men.
I don't recall specifically talking about blacks in my post, so, is there a question you have about my post or are you asking something different about the African American race specifically?
This topic is about white privilege and my conversation was about access to opportunity and the relative advantage that white men have over others in penetrating the types of social networks that allow them access to opportunity. You responded to me and I now respond to you. It was quite clear what I was talking about.
Some how what was about social networks became about random encounters at 2 AM. Obviously at a subconscious level something occurred, and, as I predicted, at a conscious level you are denying this.
Your name suggests that you are on Wall Street. Don't know what you do but I do know that white men are very over represented in the more lucrative areas of the financial sector.
So who might start off with better shot at success, all things being equal? The white son of a bus driver or the black one, both from the same school, with the same academic success, and similar personalities. Clearly both born outside of the walls of traditional privilege.
Don't tell me level playing field because then I will know that you are either being dishonest or you are joking.
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