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Old 05-14-2015, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,069,929 times
Reputation: 3805

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky2balive View Post
VIOLENT criminals should be executed period

close down half the prisons...

cap the number of felons imprisoned

every time someone new is incarcerated, the worst inmate is executed to make room
Any violence?

Get in a bar fight? Kill him.

Good. Makes perfect sense. Let's just kill everyone. If humans don't exist, who would commit the crime, right?

Such silly thinking. If we want to worry about too many prisons, we only imprison people who pose a reasonable threat to society in some way. Murderers and excessively violent people (abuse cases and such) pose a risk to people's body's and healthy, rapists and molesters risk a person's sexual security, and thieves put people's livelihood in jeopardy. But if it's not one of these things, what purpose does prison serve?

And by thieves, I mean anyone who is taking substantial amounts of goods from another. Embezzlement, breaking and entering, robbery, creation of counterfeit money, and we'll include serious property damage (like arson). Lower property crimes could probably be resolved without prison. Stealing some cheap headphones for example really don't need a prison sentences (or not a crazy long one, less than a year).

America's obsession with putting anyone we don't like in prison shows how cowardly we are.

I suggest we amend the national anthem. "Land of the incarcerated and the home of the I don't like it so let's make it illegal "

Criminal justice should be about making things right, not making us feel better. It's how we bring crime down. Being smart on crime will always be better than being tough on crime. We can claim they're the same thing, but the war on drugs which only a truly stupid person would claim has been a success proves that they aren't always the same. Ending someones life won't solve anything. If it's wrong to kill, it should always be wrong to kill. As it is, I find the concept of life in prison to be inhumane. I say we adopt Scandinavian sentencing policy. 20 or so years is the max prison sentence you can ever receive, but for serious crimes, you are evaluated at the end of that 20 year sentence; if they're likely to still be causing problems after two decades (a time in which someone can go from not existing to being a high school graduate and having the right to participate in elections), they can be resentenced. It's a just system. Allows those who work to rehabilitate themselves the opportunity to make something of themselves and can keep dangerous people off the streets. It's really a win win. Imagine if the cure for cancer is somewhere inside of a convicted murderer. We'd rather execute that person to prove a point than give them the chance to do some good in the world.

Speaking as Americans, America is home to some of the most disgusting people on the planet. I truly believe this. We scare way to easily and are threatened by change. It's tragic.

 
Old 05-15-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Way up high
22,192 posts, read 29,174,646 times
Reputation: 31253
I'm all for an eye for an eye deal...
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:11 PM
 
9,694 posts, read 7,335,564 times
Reputation: 9931
I think we need to increase the death sentance ,open an express lane, increase the sentance to rapist , tax evaisoon , slow drivers and other petty crimes
 
Old 05-15-2015, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,069,929 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by himain View Post
I'm all for an eye for an eye deal...
"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, don't resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and don't turn away him who desires to borrow from you.
--Jesus, in the book of Mathew

"An eye for an eye make the whole world blind"
--Ghandi

Two men who, with all due respect, were smarter than you. And myself of course. Both men were far more enlightened than either of us. I hope to achieve the level wisdom they had one day, but for now, all I can do is understand what they were saying and think on it.

Either way, revenge is not justice. Justice is about making things right and revenge is about making us feel better. I want to make things write, even if it's not the most pleasing solution.
 
Old 05-16-2015, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Florida
9,569 posts, read 5,565,862 times
Reputation: 12024
The Death Penalty is basically just "Revenge" killing. If you are crazy enough to take a life of another Human being how will the death penalty prevent another murder? It doesn't. The premise of the death penalty is quite simplistic or sort of spanking a child to change their behaviour. It isn't logical.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,069,929 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky2balive View Post
isn't there a tree that needs hugging...or a baby seal to save??

lol...I kid

I meant the worst of the worse...you know darned well I wasn't talking about someone in a bar fight
you empty 1/2 the prisons and I would bet there is still no shortage of VIOLENT offenders...killers, pedophiles, gang bangers, serial killers...you really think they benefit society at ALL by rotting for decades in their solitary confinement???
Pedophiles and gang bangers aren't necessarily violent, but I won't get into.

What benefit do we have from killing them? Security? A weird sense of accomplishment?

We benefit from rehabilitating people. If we can turn a former gang member into something useful, we now have one more person being productive. Sure, some will never become productive, but why miss the opportunity? If we execute them, they can never rehabilitate, and if we don't, at least they might.

I think we need new sentencing laws. One, possession of illegal 'whatever' shouldn't ever result in prison; I don't care what it is. Drugs, porn, guns, you name it. Confiscate it, send them to rehab or whatever, and maybe a fine or probation. But having something but not harming anyone should never require prison (that tax payers pay for). Theft and serious property crime can result in jail time where they are taught skills so they can get into the work force; nothing glamorous, but a place to start. Violent crimes, like rape, murder, or domestic abuse, can result in longer prison sentences. I believe that for those crimes, in order to be released, you must have made progress in rehabilitation. If they are the same person at the start as they were when they're evaluated, they stay in prison. I also would support more strenuous requirements for release for people who have been incarcerated more than one.

As for those who will never be probably rehabilitated, like serial killers and serial rapists, we can study them. Figure out what makes them sociopaths or psychopaths or whatever they are. Find out the conditions that create people like that and find ways to prevent it from happening in the future. Far more productive than killing them.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 04:45 PM
 
703 posts, read 444,715 times
Reputation: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky2balive View Post

I meant the worst of the worse...you know darned well I wasn't talking about someone in a bar fight
you empty 1/2 the prisons and I would bet there is still no shortage of VIOLENT offenders...killers, pedophiles, gang bangers, serial killers...you really think they benefit society at ALL by rotting for decades in their solitary confinement???
I don't think anyone is suggesting they do benefit society but if we want a better one we have to pass on the message to later generations that killing is wrong, and we have to accept the responsibility of confining those who don't adhere to that principle. The 'hang 'em all' attitude is what I'd expect to hear in a bar on a Saturday night, not one emanating from a responsible government. You simply cannot say to a killer before killing him that killing is wrong. Doesn't stack up does it?
If we allow a killer to dictate our actions then we stand diminished as a society. Western countries have overwhelmingly come round to that view but sadly not the US.
This approach shouldn't be taken as being soft on killers. On the contrary I think we should be as tough as hell on them - long or life terms being the only practical answer.
As I see it there are three main objections to the death penalty:

1. Religious objection
2. Moral objection (as per my comments above)
3. Certainty that some innocents will be executed

First one - may be argued according to different beliefs.
Second one - never heard a convincing argument to the contrary, other than reverting to the 'hang em all' mentality.
Third one - if one or two didn't make much impression then this one will, because THERE IS NO ARGUMENT that can justify killing innocents. Forget about saying sorry !!!
Don't people in the US wonder why most of the world has abandoned this practice but not them ????????
The only death sentence we want is the death of Capital Punishment.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,069,929 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff956 View Post
I don't think anyone is suggesting they do benefit society but if we want a better one we have to pass on the message to later generations that killing is wrong, and we have to accept the responsibility of confining those who don't adhere to that principle. The 'hang 'em all' attitude is what I'd expect to hear in a bar on a Saturday night, not one emanating from a responsible government. You simply cannot say to a killer before killing him that killing is wrong. Doesn't stack up does it?
If we allow a killer to dictate our actions then we stand diminished as a society. Western countries have overwhelmingly come round to that view but sadly not the US.
This approach shouldn't be taken as being soft on killers. On the contrary I think we should be as tough as hell on them - long or life terms being the only practical answer.
As I see it there are three main objections to the death penalty:

1. Religious objection
2. Moral objection (as per my comments above)
3. Certainty that some innocents will be executed

First one - may be argued according to different beliefs.
Second one - never heard a convincing argument to the contrary, other than reverting to the 'hang em all' mentality.
Third one - if one or two didn't make much impression then this one will, because THERE IS NO ARGUMENT that can justify killing innocents. Forget about saying sorry !!!
Don't people in the US wonder why most of the world has abandoned this practice but not them ????????
The only death sentence we want is the death of Capital Punishment.
And if I could add one more objection, it's the Economic issue.

There's the easy argument, which is how long trials for the death penalty usually go on for. It's costly and largely unhelpful. But beyond that, there's the human resource aspect. A human being still has value. Yeah, odds are most people on death row aren't probably going to be rehabilitated, but we shouldn't exclude that as a possibility indefinitely. And even so, we should really be putting prisoners to some use.

As we've heard, the argument is 'what good are they rotting in prison.' Great point. Lets make them do something. Have them work on farms. They could even provide their own food and sell extras to local communities, thus being a helpful resource.

I disagree that we should give out life sentences or excessively lengthy sentences. I think we should give 20 year max sentences, but for serious crimes (rape, murder, the usual), have a system that require rehabilitation prior to release. This means that people who are dangerous get the life sentences, but allows those who don't need the life sentence to reenter society. We benefit from having another person in the labor force; who knows, maybe they're brilliant. And frankly, many sociopaths and psychopaths are quite intelligent, and even if they pose a risk to society and should stay in prison, why not give them a chance in prison to share the genius.

I don't necessarily care if there are religious objections to the death penalty. Both the Bible and Koran condone execution, even for minor crimes. And with the case of the Boston Bomber, if he is just another Islamic jihadists, he'll see his execution as making him a martyr. But there is an ethical logic, a risk factor, and an economic factor. The ethics of killing killers is that it's a contradiction since 'they deserved it' would never get a murderer out of jail time, executing innocence is obviously immoral, and humans are a resource and getting rid of one that is still capable of work is a pretty inefficient thing to do.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 05:01 PM
 
17,478 posts, read 17,325,651 times
Reputation: 25459
Criminals are afraid of the death penalty. Why else would they fight so hard to get life in prison? In the criminal underworld, a punishment of death is instant. Because of long appeals process and plea bargains, criminals know the chances of them being executed are slim to none. Killing a cop was once a quick trip to the electric chair. Now you have a cop killer with a radio show, celebrities calling for his release, and a public school teacher assigning her students to write him a get well letter.
 
Old 05-18-2015, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,069,929 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Criminals are afraid of the death penalty. Why else would they fight so hard to get life in prison? In the criminal underworld, a punishment of death is instant. Because of long appeals process and plea bargains, criminals know the chances of them being executed are slim to none. Killing a cop was once a quick trip to the electric chair. Now you have a cop killer with a radio show, celebrities calling for his release, and a public school teacher assigning her students to write him a get well letter.
So... it's a fear tactic? A tactic when used by Muslims that is branded terrorism, but when it's the government, it's justice?

And what cop killer has a radio show?
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