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Old 03-11-2015, 08:16 PM
 
1,255 posts, read 1,238,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
When it comes to genetically-linked diseases, it is far better to test the child's DNA directly than to depend on the father's DNA. Furthermore, you're confusing two issues. A paternity test is completely separate from determining a child's vulnerability to a genetic condition. I have a genetically-linked condition, and although my paternity has been confirmed via DNA analysis, there is absolutely no sign of the disease in my father... or my mother, for that matter. Try again.
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Family medicine cannot predict reliably to such degree that you seem to expect, i.e. whether you'll develop specific disease at all, unless it's very specific genetic disease which can easily be seen through DNA testing and which also has a "dominant" inheritance in case of your parents. You inherit roughly half of your DNA from each parent and our knowledge of DNA diseases is limited. Family medicine's purpose is not primarily established to deal with diseases that can be tracked through DNA sampling, far from it. If this was the case, they'd simply mandate each person to undergo a DNA test instead. But this brings the whole issue together - testing each person's DNA on birth can easily help to create a global DNA database on a federal level. The same database can be used to establish paternity and avoid the multi-billion dollar court expenses.
What would be the excuse why the states allow cuckoldry from that point on? Well, because it's convenient for the mother. This is my main point indeed. State laws don't care about keeping a family intact by hiding a lie when a guy fathers a child and a child's mother comes to demand paternity test. They don't care if a guy is living with another woman or is married, whether she'll dump him over the fact that his affair is discovered, whether children from this relationship will suffer due to outcome. It's all about a woman's convenience and the law is indeed written in such way deliberately.

I.e., the same law allows sperm donors to father a child and not be sued for child support - because mother actually wants them out of the picture completely. This is proven to be the case even in cases of Virginia's unwed couples who seeked IVF in other states. Fathers of these children demanded paternity rights, only to find out that a law treats them as sperm donors and despite their desire to play role in child life and their biological link - they were legally barred from such right.
On the other hand, paternity tests are taxpayer-funded when mother wants to send the bill to a guy who never knew or wanted this child. I can keep arguing like this forever. My point is, once again, that this whole issue should have been a non-issue in this day and time. It isn't so. Legislators are very busy to obstruct massive and ever-growing anonymous DNA testing industry, since paternity kits can be ordered with relative ease, then the samples are taken and sent to a medical facility which will offer you to review the results anonymously via password-protected access to your anonymous results.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 03-11-2015 at 11:23 PM..
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:18 PM
 
Location: The analog world
15,629 posts, read 8,758,135 times
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I won't argue with you that it is important for a health care practitioner to take a family history, but a paternity test is no guarantee of having anything other than validation of paternity. Without records of the father's health history, you've got nothing. A paternity test is NOT a full health history. Many, many people go without regular check-ups in this country, and even if they do receive regular health care, there is no central database tracking their conditions and treatments. As a matter of fact, I have to hand carry my test results from my GP to the specialists who treat my condition and back again. Once again, paternity testing at birth is not going to provide the kind of diagnostic and preventative care you're hoping to see. It's just a paternity test. Nothing more.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:21 PM
 
Location: The analog world
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And back on point, as putative father you already have the right to pursue private paternity testing if you gave any doubts about your partner's honesty. And it's pretty cheap, too.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:50 PM
 
1,255 posts, read 1,238,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
I won't argue with you that it is important for a health care practitioner to take a family history, but a paternity test is no guarantee of having anything other than validation of paternity. #1 Without records of the father's health history, you've got nothing. #2 A paternity test is NOT a full health history. Many, #3 many people go without regular check-ups in this country, and even if they do receive regular health care, there is no central database tracking their conditions and treatments. As a matter of fact, I have to hand carry my test results from my GP to the specialists who treat my condition and back again. #4 Once again, paternity testing at birth is not going to provide the kind of diagnostic and preventative care you're hoping to see. It's just a paternity test. Nothing more.
1. True, which is why it had to start from some point. Records of all individuals are collected in carton-type catalogues before computers were available and cheap enough to be used in such purpose. Someone had to scan and enter all these data and they still did it.

2. Indeed, you also need to know who your biological mother is, in order to establish family tree which includes both your parents. The more you know, the better - this implies even your grandparents, uncles, aunts, nieces, etc. Once again, family history primarily relies on biological link and observing diseases that your relatives had, since very few and generally rare diseases can be traced through specific DNA test. Pay note that state of Virginia issues taking blood samples of newborns and gives such samples to the mother unless she is explicitly against it. This is done to make sure to avoid a 1 out of 100,000,000 scenario where biological mother's DNA doesn't match due to i.e. 2x number of chromosomes that a child or mother has, etc, and where the child gets kidnapped. It is covered by health insurance. You'd wonder if they actually cared to deal with real-life and common scenarios where a guy would be lead to believe he's the biological father but he's not, yet they obviously don't care about anything like that - because a guy's issue should be an issue of his own.

3. I've explained it earlier that plenty of people happen to have diabetes for years before they figure it out. They may and WILL get reminded about it if they or their doctors can see this pattern. I also don't agree with your remark that people generally don't care about their health. An average lifespan is close to 80 y/o. Let's not kid ourselves, this isn't the result of genetics - since generations in 1950s happened to have a lifespan of 50 y/o. It's the result of numerous medical advancements, changes in lifestyles and activities, as well as increased medical care among the elderly folks. You hand-carried your results, which means that you had someone to keep the evidences of your family history. Its best use is when you get much older, indeed.

4. It's justifiable from financial, medical, moral and any other aspect. I agree, it's just a paternity test. And it's just one life that you have. I don't beliee in the so-called "YOLO" argument as an excuse to do stupid things either, just to make it clear.



Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
#1 And back on point, as putative father you already have the right to pursue private paternity testing if you gave any doubts about your partner's honesty. #2 And it's pretty cheap, too.
#1. No. You have the right to establish or contest paternity in court. You have no right to test your child anonymously in a number of countries indeed, DESPITE the fact that you're a putative father. This is a well-known fact, which is why a number of countries, such as France, Germany, Sweden, etc - banned not only paternity testing, but their countries enforced jail time and monetary fines if you break such rule. They didn't stop there, a number of countries even banned a legal way to make monetary transaction towards certain medical institutions that offer anonymous DNA testing - under the excuse that these subjects are breaking their country's law, despite the fact that these medical facilities are not subject to these laws. More and more countries are legislating against their own citizens from pursuing these tests. This happens in so-called democracy. I would really need to be an idiot not to realize what's this all about.
Here's more news for any man reading this - legislators banned taking DNA samples under an excuse that they primarily intend to ban insurance companies from discriminating their clients based on their medical history. This is absolutely false, given that just about every country passed another law which deliberately legislated against such behavior as well. The most obvious part what the law is about is the fact that the law was almost exclusively applied against people who tried to or did DNA testing without an explicit court approval. Australia is the best example of this mockery because a number of men were stupid enough to admit it publicly after finding out the truth, then their ex wives sued them on these grounds.

#2 Yes, it's pretty cheap despite the fact that it's not routinized and this is the major argument that it'd be even cheaper and much more acceptable than to have billions of dollars spent on establishing paternity of just a fraction of children. It seems that the taxpayers money can be spent if a mother tries to place a guy on the hook, but it seems that if a guy wishes the taxpayers to help him confirm or clear his doubts - he's supposed to pay it on his own. Most men thus simply leave their wives the first moment they suspect, or they stay and have serious emotional issues over it. I've observed the pattern of women who posted - it's very symptomatic that there are so many women who posted on something that's NOT something that can or will happen to them. They seem not to care that it can happen to any man or child, they seem not to care about anyone's emotional or economical well-being, except for potential selves of the "team women".

Last edited by nald; 03-11-2015 at 09:00 PM..
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Old 03-12-2015, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,824 posts, read 2,547,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnalsI gnoL View Post
Yes, but no lawmaker would pass such a law, as they'd probably lose the female vote.
True. In these sorts of threads you usually have the women lining up against mandatory testing while the men tend to support it. With some exceptions of course. I think they should be mandatory, due to the altered nature of the legal definition of fatherhood in modern society, as well as the changing nature of the family itself, where marriages end in divorce nearly half the time and the rising prominence of non traditional family units. If fatherhood is going to be relegated to a financial contract(child support is enforced while visitation often isn't), the prospective father should have proof of paternity before signing the contract(birth certificate). If you make it optional then any married father who asks for one is putting his marriage in jeopardy because he is essentially telling his wife he doesn't trust her. I understand the hesitance in letting the government put everyone's DNA in a database but if they really want that to happen it'll happen anyway. All it takes is a discrete saliva sample.
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Old 03-12-2015, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
20,015 posts, read 20,519,392 times
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What needs to be done is to change the law. Why not lobby for reform instead of instigating a expensive and intrusive mandatory undertaking. All men should have to admit and accept paternity before they can be named as father on a birth certificate. If one is in doubt make it easy for him to get a DNA test. If no father can be named at the time of birth and a woman brings case for child support at a later date a DNA test should be mandatory.

If a married father is worried about requesting a DNA test his marriage is already in trouble. It should not be on the entire public to ease his mistrust or provide a cushion for his marital issues.
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,725,933 times
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What about the woman who's husband cannot provide her with a child who quietly gets pregnant from somebody else with her husband's knowledge and consent? Do they want the fact that the baby is not theirs open to the world?
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Old 03-13-2015, 07:56 AM
 
Location: The analog world
15,629 posts, read 8,758,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
What about the woman who's husband cannot provide her with a child who quietly gets pregnant from somebody else with her husband's knowledge and consent? Do they want the fact that the baby is not theirs open to the world?
That's an interesting point. How would mandatory paternity testing account for infertility treatment using donated sperm?
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Elysium
5,816 posts, read 3,095,321 times
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Mandatory? Are we going to amend the constitution.

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
When people marry in part they are assuming the risk, part of which the legal prejudice that the husband is the father. When they engage in sex outside of marriage they are assuming the risk. Neither party taking a risk is a reason to strip the rights of the people.
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,725,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
That's an interesting point. How would mandatory paternity testing account for infertility treatment using donated sperm?
Yes anonymous sperm donation is one option or even quietly involving a friend or the husbands relative( so the baby will still be related to the husband) . Of course if the baby is still related to the husband how would that show up on the paternity test?

And for that matter if she cheats on her husband without his knowledge with his brother or close relative to get pregnant will her husband ever know the truth even with a paternity test? Won't the test still show him to be the likely father?
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