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Old 03-20-2015, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Nescopeck, Penna.
11,391 posts, read 6,803,935 times
Reputation: 14458

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Quote:
Originally Posted by john620 View Post
The military is not a good place for Justin or for anyone for that matter. The military training starting with boot camp is all about brainwashing and desensitizing kids to violence and commotion. The DIs produce robots who don't think but just follow orders. Of course sooner or later a lot will snap. Just like with cops (and a lot of cops were in the military) soldiers have the highest rates of domestic violence and alcoholism. Them being part of a mighty organization makes them physcopathic in all other areas where they put their desires above the public.

Maybe Justin could have benefited from learning a skill like carpenter, masonary, plumbing or etc. Prison is not a place of keeping society safe but about torturing and abusing people the government wants to torture and abuse. The justice system hasn't worked with Justin because the justice system is not about helping people and only produces even more violent and shady people because of being cast aside by society because of a record. There is no cure.
There are plenty of people out there who don't like us .... simply because of our success which is due both to our freely competitive system and our doors remaining open to the ambitious and the productive from all over the globe.

Justin simply is not one of them. His background never allowed him to link rewards with motivation; that, in turn because, though he's never had a strong father-figure; his existence has always allowed him to fall back upon -- and exploit -- the system, in one form or another.

A "playground" attracts kids, creeps and cops, in that order. The street is a playground; that's why he's always been attracted to it (though he's getting a little too old for the game). The world has always needed a policeman, and whether we like and admit to it or not, that role was thrust upon us after 1945. I've known a number of families for whom participating in that role is a tradition, and my hat is off to them, but obviously, Justin is not suitable, and never was, or will be,

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
What to do about the Justin you described? I wonder if he has any dreams ? Any talents and skills he is not using? Any interest in anything constructive? Find out what it is and encourage it. Some homeless shelters can actually pay for some small degrees as well. Maybe all Justin needs is a push in the right direction.
Justin's only "dream" is of a fantasy-life where he would remain 16 forever, and the street would provide an endless supply of new people for him to manipulate and exploit. When some new "mark" comes along, he feigns interest in whatever is being solicited, and stays around only long enough determine if there's something or someone he can steal from and exploit. He has a GED "diploma" from a city school district known for lax standards and petty graft, and he's taken a few courses from a struggling community college (I wonder if they ever got paid for any of it?), and he's a little to old, and/or with too poor a "track record", to qualify for must serious retraining,

What Justin needs is to find himself in a situation in which there is absolutely no "wiggle room"; one from which he can't get out, and all the nave "do-gooders" with a program to sell him can't get in, and where any form of rebellion or intransigence will make his personal situation just a little bit more limited each time around. It might break him completely, or it might just make him finally recognize that he has to play the game by the rules.

At this point, I doubt that anything or anyone can lead him away from this self-destructive path -- unless he hits rock bottom and finally takes a hard look at himself. It's a bit painful for me precisely because I've always rebelled on certain points, never been completely broken myself, and see a lot of things I recall from when I was younger.

Last edited by 2nd trick op; 03-20-2015 at 05:25 PM..
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,213,171 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
That's not his real name, of course; but his story is sadly typical of the collateral damage of a society which seems determined to let the unmotivated escape responsibility.

Justin was born out of wedlock, an early casualty of the failure of our culture to link the sexual revolution with education and sensible behavior.. He escaped the abortionist because of his mother's Catholicism and the dedication of his aunt, a non-cloistered nun.

For the first few years of his life, his mother led him through several unstable households, in several states, as her relationships with a series of irresponsible men changed. As he became more and more of a burden, she eventually threw him out of the house when he turned eighteen. but that didn't make the problem go away.

That was the start of a long pattern of semi-vagrancy, drifting from one locality to another, and occasionally sleeping under Mom's porch; a series of broken jobs (because "they don't pay enough", and most of them actually expected him to work), betrayal of anyone who tried to help -- sometimes leaving them with extra bills to pay, and occasional petty thievery, or tax and Unemployment fraud (but not big enough to result an any serious charges).

A little research on this individual turned up penny-ante arrests in no less than eight states, and a couple of cases of credit card abuse and identity theft.

The one trait tht has manged to keep Justin out of 'heavy-duty" jail is enough street sense to stay away from drugs, but I wouldn't be suprised to learn of a little "muling". He's also smart enough not to cause another pregnancy like his own, but doesn't seem to be able to decide whether he's straight or gay -- (turned up in San Francisco a few years ago and was promptly flown home courtesy of the police to clear up a few legal issues) but the market for "go-go boys" is limited.

Justin is 43 years of age, white, and Anglo-Saxon surnamed, and at this point, it's almost certain that he'll become more of a burden on all of us. I have no idea what his failure to live responsibly has cost us all in dollars and cents, but even if he were confined and compelled to earn it back, I doubt if it could be recovered.

But the point I seek to make here is that there are tens of thousands more like Justin in some way: some are more-attuned to the "gangsta" culture, and of course, many will either end up in the prison system, or make an early trip to the cemetery.

But until fairly recently, our society had much tougher vagrancy laws, and a system of local justice that made these guys' lives a lot less pleasant at an earlier stage. In many areas, the local news media also helped make them easier to identify and exclude.

The problem continues to fester; how should we deal with t?
Honestly this describes my older brother pretty accurately. One big difference is drug abuse and drug dealing were heavy parts of this equation. Another big difference was my older brother played the guilt trip constantly on my mother. She married a guy when she was a teenager that ended up being abusive to get away from the broken home she was raised in. He made her feel guilty about leaving his father who ended up being a pure ****bag and just a violent version of Justin that you described.

He made her feel guilty about never raising him "the right way" anything and everything was never his fault in his mind. The last big difference is my father coming into the picture. Of course my older brother hated him for "taking away his mother" since he wanted her all to himself. Tried accusing my father of sexual assaulting him and our sister repeatedly which never happened and was pure BS. My mother feeling sorry for him would let him move back in whenever he got out of jail or prison which always caused the home to be divided.

My sister and I would never help him in a million years due to growing up dealing with his BS. He could show up at either of our door steps shot bleeding to death on a frigid winter night begging for help and all we would do is close the door and let him die. That might sound rather inhuman for anyone who hasn't dealt with people like this before but if you have you would definitely get the just letting him die attitude.

Now as far as what you can do to help someone like you described with Justin goes the truth is you can't help them. They really are a lost cause. They are going to end up dead or in prison for the rest of there lives with no one to blame but themselves. The only way they can get help is if they help themselves and since they are unable to do so I would advice never giving someone like them any help let alone pity since all they are going to do at the end of the day is exploit you.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:55 PM
 
9,308 posts, read 7,315,390 times
Reputation: 22802
I'm sorry but I'm missing the point here. Justin had a sucky upbringing. So do a lot of people.

It seems he has the ability to make decisions and he has made the decision to be a petty criminal/vagrant.

There are housing, job training, and all sorts of social benefits (including mental health) he could tap to get his life "in order."

What do you expect to be done?
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:26 PM
 
6,981 posts, read 4,181,052 times
Reputation: 5121
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op View Post
That's not his real name, of course; but his story is sadly typical of the collateral damage of a society which seems determined to let the unmotivated escape responsibility.

Justin was born out of wedlock, an early casualty of the failure of our culture to link the sexual revolution with education and sensible behavior.. He escaped the abortionist because of his mother's Catholicism and the dedication of his aunt, a non-cloistered nun.

For the first few years of his life, his mother led him through several unstable households, in several states, as her relationships with a series of irresponsible men changed. As he became more and more of a burden, she eventually threw him out of the house when he turned eighteen. but that didn't make the problem go away.

That was the start of a long pattern of semi-vagrancy, drifting from one locality to another, and occasionally sleeping under Mom's porch; a series of broken jobs (because "they don't pay enough", and most of them actually expected him to work), betrayal of anyone who tried to help -- sometimes leaving them with extra bills to pay, and occasional petty thievery, or tax and Unemployment fraud (but not big enough to result an any serious charges).

A little research on this individual turned up penny-ante arrests in no less than eight states, and a couple of cases of credit card abuse and identity theft.

The one trait tht has manged to keep Justin out of 'heavy-duty" jail is enough street sense to stay away from drugs, but I wouldn't be suprised to learn of a little "muling". He's also smart enough not to cause another pregnancy like his own, but doesn't seem to be able to decide whether he's straight or gay -- (turned up in San Francisco a few years ago and was promptly flown home courtesy of the police to clear up a few legal issues) but the market for "go-go boys" is limited.

Justin is 43 years of age, white, and Anglo-Saxon surnamed, and at this point, it's almost certain that he'll become more of a burden on all of us. I have no idea what his failure to live responsibly has cost us all in dollars and cents, but even if he were confined and compelled to earn it back, I doubt if it could be recovered.

But the point I seek to make here is that there are tens of thousands more like Justin in some way: some are more-attuned to the "gangsta" culture, and of course, many will either end up in the prison system, or make an early trip to the cemetery.

But until fairly recently, our society had much tougher vagrancy laws, and a system of local justice that made these guys' lives a lot less pleasant at an earlier stage. In many areas, the local news media also helped make them easier to identify and exclude.

The problem continues to fester; how should we deal with t?
Stick the parents in jail for crimes the kids commit. This way there will be strong incentive to raise a child who knows right from wrong, etc.

Also, there needs to be some "rules" for having children in the first place....you shouldn't be allowed to just have a kid if you're physically able, you should have proof that you're a stable citizen with a job and quality relationships, etc and be able to prove you can "afford" to support a child for at least 18 years.
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Old 03-20-2015, 06:43 PM
 
9,308 posts, read 7,315,390 times
Reputation: 22802
Quote:
Originally Posted by wall st kid View Post
Also, there needs to be some "rules" for having children in the first place....you shouldn't be allowed to just have a kid if you're physically able, you should have proof that you're a stable citizen with a job and quality relationships, etc and be able to prove you can "afford" to support a child for at least 18 years.
How would this work?

1. How would you define being a "stable citizen?"
2. How would you define an judge "quality relationships?"
3. How would you be able to track/monitor a couple's ability to have a stable income over an 18 year period given the realities of life (illness, layoffs, downsizing, accidents, etc)?
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Old 03-20-2015, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,213,171 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by wall st kid View Post
Stick the parents in jail for crimes the kids commit. This way there will be strong incentive to raise a child who knows right from wrong, etc.

Also, there needs to be some "rules" for having children in the first place....you shouldn't be allowed to just have a kid if you're physically able, you should have proof that you're a stable citizen with a job and quality relationships, etc and be able to prove you can "afford" to support a child for at least 18 years.
It's obvious from this post you lived a very sheltered life. You can do everything possible to try and raise your kid right but you will always have that small percentage that will Moderator cut: language there own lives no matter how much of a great parent you were. On the flip side you can be one of the worst parents ever and a small percentage of children raised by these scumbag parents will end up doing well in life.

Last edited by Oldhag1; 03-20-2015 at 08:22 PM..
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Old 03-21-2015, 04:35 PM
 
6,981 posts, read 4,181,052 times
Reputation: 5121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
It's obvious from this post you lived a very sheltered life. You can do everything possible to try and raise your kid right but you will always have that small percentage that will Moderator cut: language there own lives no matter how much of a great parent you were. On the flip side you can be one of the worst parents ever and a small percentage of children raised by these scumbag parents will end up doing well in life.
But if you did everything right and the "parent police" determined you were an otherwise good parent, you don't go to jail. Its the parents who are obviously bad that get in trouble.

As far as sheltered go, i think people need to be responsible for their actions, not just popping out kids they can't afford and then those kids end up breaking car windows to steal people's belongings because they have nothing to eat.
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Old 03-21-2015, 04:38 PM
 
6,981 posts, read 4,181,052 times
Reputation: 5121
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlygal View Post
How would this work?

1. How would you define being a "stable citizen?"
2. How would you define an judge "quality relationships?"
3. How would you be able to track/monitor a couple's ability to have a stable income over an 18 year period given the realities of life (illness, layoffs, downsizing, accidents, etc)?
Same way that companies review applicants for jobs, they take everything into consideration and make the best decision they could. The "parent police" would determine if extenuating circumstances were a factor or if the person brought the problems with their own bad decisions. Its pretty easy to see which children have a stable family, with a mom and a dad, living in an actual house with a good upbringing and those who are not.
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Old 03-21-2015, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,392 posts, read 1,213,171 times
Reputation: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by wall st kid View Post
But if you did everything right and the "parent police" determined you were an otherwise good parent, you don't go to jail. Its the parents who are obviously bad that get in trouble.
Exactly how would you determine who is or isn't a good parent and what makes good parenting exactly? When I talk about parents being scumbags I'm referring to parents who are abusive, have addiction problems, can't hold down jobs, in and out jail constantly. That's a far cry from some parent who may raise a child somewhat differently than most other parents do. Your suggestion of a "parent police" is a horrible idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wall st kid
As far as sheltered go, i think people need to be responsible for their actions, not just popping out kids they can't afford and then those kids end up breaking car windows to steal people's belongings because they have nothing to eat.
You can do everything right as a parent and kids can still end up breaking card windows and shoplifting. Also the kids might be problem children now but turn out fine when they become adults either. There is a lot more grey on this issue. If someone is in there late thirties or just hit there forties and is still screwing up in life constantly then yes they are a lost cause someone still in there teens or just turning twenty they still have a chance.
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Old 03-21-2015, 05:34 PM
 
6,981 posts, read 4,181,052 times
Reputation: 5121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwa1984 View Post
Exactly how would you determine who is or isn't a good parent and what makes good parenting exactly? When I talk about parents being scumbags I'm referring to parents who are abusive, have addiction problems, can't hold down jobs, in and out jail constantly. That's a far cry from some parent who may raise a child somewhat differently than most other parents do. Your suggestion of a "parent police" is a horrible idea.



You can do everything right as a parent and kids can still end up breaking card windows and shoplifting. Also the kids might be problem children now but turn out fine when they become adults either. There is a lot more grey on this issue. If someone is in there late thirties or just hit there forties and is still screwing up in life constantly then yes they are a lost cause someone still in there teens or just turning twenty they still have a chance.

You make solid points, there's no right or wrong answer, all i care about is that i don't have a crime committed against me because of something that could have been prevented. There's a reason you have to have a drivers license to drive a car on the roads....you have to prove that you have some kind of skills in order to drive...but with parents, if you can get pregnant or you can get someone pregnant, you're allowed to bring a child into this society?

While you have the rare instance where a kid who was "brought up right" did something bad, a lot of times, those crimes are preventable, but we don't hold anyone accountable so thats why honest and innocent people in our society end up damaged by other people's bad choices.
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